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Welcome to Madness Radio. This is your host, Will Hall. And today our guest is Rob

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Wypond. Rob is a freelance investigative journalist who writes frequently at

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the interfaces between psychiatry, civil rights, policing, surveillance and

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privacy, and social change. His articles have been nominated for 17 magazine and

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journalism awards for writing in medicine, science, and technology, business, and

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law, and also works and volunteers with nonprofit groups that do neighborhood

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community building. Rob's latest book, which is highly recommended by Madness

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Radio, is "Your consent is not required. The rise in psychiatric

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detentions, forced treatment, and abusive guardianships." So welcome to Madness

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Radio. Rob Wypond. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. I'm a fan. And I'm a

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fan. I was a fan of your work. We've known each other for 15 plus years. And I

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just want to say, this, please, I mean, read this book. This book is absolutely

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essential reading. I think this is an extraordinary thing that you have done. It's

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is, it feels like as significant as a milestone and advance for the movement, for

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the cause of human rights and mental health, as Robert Whitaker's publication of

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anatomy of an epidemic. And I just hope and pray that this book gets out there and

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is read and creates as much of a vortex of response and provocation and

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inspiration. And I just want to say congratulations. And on behalf of myself and

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also people that I work with, the broader movement, I mean, I think we owe you a

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tremendous thanks for writing this book. Thank you so much for writing this

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book, Rob. Well, thank you, Will. And yeah, let's

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and let's fully acknowledge who's in the book. You know, the many, many people

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who've been subjected to psychiatric detentions and forced treatment who shared

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their stories with me, not only the ones that are in the book, but over a 20-year

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period that I've been researching these issues. You know, it's really so much

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their voice, their energy, their blood, you know, that runs through that. And

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and I want to make sure it's much as possible that I'm always redirecting some

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of that. The praise that I get to hear, you know,

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I'm fortunate enough to hear from from those readers who get something of value

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from the book, you know, sometimes I'll even ask them, oh, what story touched you

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so that I can relay it to that source and say, hey, you've got a fan out there.

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They were really moved by your story. And yeah, so I just want to emphasize that.

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And the other thing is I'm really honored by that comparison. You know, of course,

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I've done work with Robert Whittaker at Madden America. And but that doesn't

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why I say this, you know, why I'm honored by that comparison with anatomy and

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epidemic. But it's because I can't tell you how many people I've interviewed who

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say that book changed their lives, you know, for the better. And wow, you know,

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what more kind of writer or anybody that works in this kind of field ask for, you

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know, then to have touched people in that kind of way. And and yeah, so if this

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book could in some way that someone would say to me, hey, that book changed my life

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in a positive way. Boy, that that's awesome. So I really value that comparison because of my

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on the ground experience of people just spontaneously telling me, well, in the middle of their story.

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And then I read anatomy of epidemic. And oh boy, things changed, you know, well, it's an

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extraordinary book. And one of the reasons I'm so excited about helping to get this book

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out there is because of your own grounding in community development work, community advocacy

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and community building. And you know, someone asked me about this. And I said that this this book

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really represents what advocacy really is about. It's about lifting the voice of people who

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have been voiceless. And that's really what you're doing here. And I think that's what Bob did.

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And I want to say also to people, this is this is a very painful topic just as medications is a

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painful topic topic. We're talking about violence. We're talking about torture essentially. We're

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talking about kidnapping and assault, which has all been normalized and sanitized and you've

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been you've been amized and or well in transformed into these bureaucratic words to cover up what is

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essentially a large scale murderous violence happening globally. And your book, I think, truly

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represents honestly what is going on. It's an unflinching look at the darkness of psychiatry, which

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we absolutely have to look at. And at the same time, this was a hard book, even as I celebrate this book.

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And I'm I feel so seen by this book and seen by your work because I'm a survivor of forced psychiatric

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treatment, psychiatric violence. My father is a survivor of psychiatric violence. I have so many

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friends who have died. I'd people have been injured people who have I'm so deeply connected with

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this book, even as I celebrate it and I'm inspired by it. It was hard. It was really hard for me to

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start reading it. And I just want to recognize those listeners that, you know, hey, if it's it's

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it's this might be a difficult topic for us to um to dive into. And I'm just to acknowledge that

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and because I know personally it's difficult for me. So that's one of the things I'm kind of

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balancing is my inspiration and my interest in my appreciation and my my learning, but also like,

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wow, I still have these wounds. And even though my own experience with psychiatric incarceration

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and violence was in the late 90s, those wounds are still very alive for me sitting down with this

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with your book. I start to feel the traumatic response that the triggering and I have to kind of

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think about, okay, what's going on here? It's not because I'm not paying attention or not trying

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hard enough or I'm not focusing enough on the book. Oh, I'm having memories come up. This is

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and I would like to say that I'm recovered and healed from this. I'm certainly working on it,

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but like I think most of us when we have extreme violence happen to us, it isn't ongoing process.

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So I just want to say that and to honor that and I want to also congratulate you and honor you

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for how sensitively you have approached this topic. The thing that was most powerful for me,

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Rob, sitting down with your book is that you start with a personal story and I'm very, very sorry

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to hear about what happened with your father. And I'm so glad that the the story does take a turn

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in a positive direction, but maybe you could say a little bit about, you know, your own experience

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with this and how you got interested. And I'm also especially interested in what you bring as a

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journalist who's committed to community building treatment because I know you've been working on this

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for more than 20 years. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, for 25 years, I've been basically

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often on researching this issue. In fact, that's part of it. You know, I actually, for much of the

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reasons you described already, actually stopped writing about civil rights in the mental health

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system because I just couldn't handle it anymore. At a period in my life, I just thought, yeah,

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I got to write about something else. And then everything else I chose, I was a community based on the

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ground journalist interested in social issues generally. Well, I'd look at policing. Well, you know,

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I'd look at health issues. Well, I'd look at poverty. Well, I'd look at, you know, you name it in a

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community and guess what would suddenly appear again. Oh, there's people being forcefully treated.

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And that actually was a huge, huge element of why I wanted to write a book about this right there.

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So we'll have the personal thing. I'll talk about it in a second. But it was this realization by

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working in one community where I became widely recognized because my photo was there in the

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publication that I was writing for all the time. People would say, Hey, I saw you. I became very aware

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of how permeating the mental health system is in our society and how widely the mental health laws

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are being used against this extraordinary range of people that just is not being covered by anyone else

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because as a national journalist, you won't see this. You have to be a community journalist to see it.

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And Rob, I think this is why the comparison with anatomy of an epidemic is apt because there's

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like a widespread mythology or propaganda, marketing, deception that anti-psychotic medications,

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psychiatric drugs are just benevolent, latest, effective treatments for mental illness and the

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field is innovating and treatment outcomes are improving anatomy of an epidemic sort of crystallized

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all the critiques that shattered that mythology. And I think that that's exactly what your book

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is doing. You're bringing together all these voices and all these criticisms and all this pushback

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into this moment that is fundamentally saying no. This is a myth that this is somehow an acceptable,

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positive, helpful recovery-oriented, progressive medical intervention to force people into hospitals

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and to force them into taking drugs. You're naming it for what it is, a failure and a form of widespread

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violence. I want to highlight like what I'm learning is most people have no idea what force psychiatric

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treatment is. And it's not even like there's much of a propaganda system out there describing it

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in some other way. People just sort of operate with this weird assumption that's floating out there

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that the involuntary treatment is roughly like we pull you into psychiatric hospital. They understand

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that. Police may be involved. We pull you into psychiatric hospital and then they just have this

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amorphous sort of understanding that they talk to you, they persuade you to take some drugs,

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you take them, you're spontaneously happy. You have a safe space to be, you kind of get to rest,

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you're sort of protected for a while. Exactly. And you feel so good about being there and

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and you take the strong and you miraculously instantly start feeling better, so much better that you're

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like, thank you, you're thanking everyone as if you were just in a car crash and they repaired you

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on the operating table and you've woken up. Hey, they're doctors, they're angels, they're

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saviors. Thank you so much. If you're in a crisis call 911, they'll come and help you, don't worry,

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we're here to help. Exactly. And this is the image that somehow, even though you won't see that

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described anywhere, I've never seen that written out in any block by, you know, point by point form

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in a, in a publication, but this is somehow the belief that just been absorbed into people's

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consciousness. It's the right thing to do, call the authorities, get someone hospitalized. It's

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the responsible thing to do. Yeah. And so we need to emphasize that what I kind of say is there is

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such a thing as nominally involuntary. That's the term I think I might have invented, nominally

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involuntary. So that means it kind of does play out a little bit like that. Maybe your family kind of

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persuades you to go to the hospital, you go, you are seeking help, you are feeling distressed.

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And the doctor talks to you very respectfully and politely about what you've been going through.

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And so would you like to try these drugs? We kind of think, you know, and I'm really sorry, but

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we're kind of worried about you. So we may need to detain you. Really sort, you know, it's like,

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that's the conversation. And I call that nominally involuntary. You take the drug, you try it,

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you're so, you are thankful. You do benefit because some people do like the effects of these drugs,

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right? And so they, and they work it out. They could I have a slightly lower dose? Yes, of course. Why

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not? Is that working for you? Wonderful. Bye-bye. You know, I think that does happen. On occasion. Yeah.

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On occasion. On occasion. Yeah, exactly. I can't say I actually met many people.

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I have, but it doesn't, it doesn't somehow negate the overwhelming number of other people. Exactly.

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No, it doesn't. It doesn't. And that's way more, way more common. And so what I try to say is,

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okay, we have nominally involuntary. That isn't really what the books about. Although I do touch on it

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and all of that. What true force treatment is that the person says no. And they may say no because

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for whatever reason they don't want to even try those drugs or whatever other treatment is being

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offered, like electric shock or something else. Or they, they have tried them. And they say no,

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I've tried it. And I did not like it. It did not make me feel better. Or they do try it right in

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the moment and say, okay, I'm not liking this. Can we stop this now? So it's one of those scenarios.

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In that scenario, this is what my book is mainly about. What happens then? And what happens then is,

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and people need to understand this that they've never experienced it or seen it, is security guards

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come in? Restraints are used. Physical restraints. People are forcibly stripped if they refuse to strip.

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They're injected with needles in their bare bottoms, you know, while they're thrashing and screaming

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sometimes. And this is a heavy, tranquilizing medication. Sometimes it'll be several anti-psychotics

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and and sedatives all wrapped together in one dose that can literally knock somebody out. And,

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and that's the kind of medication, quote unquote, that they're getting. And so, and then this can

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extend further into control in the hospital. You may not be allowed to have visitors. They may

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decide that they don't like your family and they don't want your family. They're advocating in your

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behalf. They'll just prevent them from showing up. There are a range of rights that people can lose. And

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so that's what that's book is about is what's actually happening. So I had had a few run-ins

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with friends of mine being detained in psychiatric hospitals for brief periods. So I knew it existed

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and I had some concern in the back of my mind hovering there. I'd always been interested in

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non-ordinary states of consciousness and different ways of seeing the world. I'd always kind of

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seen myself as somebody who was kind of creative and different and outside the boxes. And that was

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the world I lived in. And so I did read books like One Flute of the Kukku's Nastyre, people like Ardieland

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Lang and you know a variety of things as a young person. So that was kind of hovering in the back of

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my mind. When in 1997 my father had surgery that left him with some serious repercussions. So he

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was understandably going through a difficult period emotionally. And he sought help at the local

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psychiatric hospital, went in there with my mother and my brother and was promptly detained against

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his will. Now this was a career college professor of computer engineering. Someone with no history of

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quote unquote mental health issues and you know and understandably going through a very difficult

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time. Nevertheless, he got certified and orcibly treated very quickly, which shocked me. And then

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the shock deepened as I witnessed how these drugs that he was given first affected him to the point

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that he could you know really just wasn't helping his awareness at all. He seemed to become physically

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debilitated by them. They were changing all the time. He had sought help there. He certainly didn't

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see himself as certifiable and that he should lose all his rights. And I think we were all shocked at

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how easily that happened and just how grim an atmosphere. The hospital really was for him. I think

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at the level that you know my mother was worried and my brother was concerned for them. It was a little

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more like this is the time to go to doctors. I was more in the mode of when I had spent some time

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there. It's like you'll get through it dad. It'll be all right. But I had left and and my brother had

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you know hearing my mother's concerns. They were anxious and they just felt it was the right thing to do.

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So it was they controlled and persuaded and my dad agreed. It was sort of a mix. It was coercive you

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might say right. I think he was like okay a bit. I'll try it and he kind of started to spin out. And

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this is something that happens too right. These drugs have mind altering effects. So how people start

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talking and responding can be significantly affected. And what I do know and what I recount in the

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book is is none of these drugs were helping. He was just actually getting worse and we started to

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kind of say can't he just sort of be here without drugs. You know just safe in the hospital.

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Maybe that is good for him. But you know just time to kind of be with himself in an environment

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where he he won't threaten anyone or anything like that. And they were like no no we treat diseases

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at hospitals. This is what we do. And now we want to do electroconvulsive therapy. And we were like

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what you still do that. What you know all of that. And we got the oh it's a myth that it causes

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brain damage. Oh it's a myth that it causes memory loss. It'll you know it's all fine. It's all great.

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It's you know all this stuff. And yeah but as I recount through that chapter he got steadily worse.

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The electro shock was extremely damaging. He ultimately lost permanently the entire year surrounding

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the electro shocks. He still today barely remembers anything from that period. And all during the time

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he's getting worse they're saying no no no this is his disease. He's actually needs more treatment.

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That's right. And he was saying no like at the beginning of the electro shock he very clearly

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articulated to them to me. I don't want this. I'm scared of it. I don't like it. And they did it

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anyway. And this is this is the darkest part of this is that people with good intentions will see

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the suffering of another person. They will see right in front of them the person saying no they will

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see the person suffering worsen. And instead of responding to the person they will respond to their

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training and their conditioning and their authority and their brainwashing really in the medical

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industrial complex to disregard the humanity of that person right in front of them. And to go with

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continuing to inflict harm on them. And it reminds me of the Stanley Milgram experiment that was part

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of MK Ultra where the people will just continue to administer shocks to an actor in another room that

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they don't see but they're hearing the person screaming that they'll continue to administer shocks

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because they're in an authority relationship with a doctor. And the doctor is saying no no go ahead

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and keep doing this is one of the most disturbing things about both your father's story and also

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what happens throughout the system is what is the glue of obedience that holds all this together.

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Yeah well we do have this very toxic notion circulating that's relevant in my father's case as well

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of lack of insight right this is the concept the term that's used in some jurisdictions it's actually

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embedded in the laws this notion that once you've got a mental disorder diagnosis nothing you say

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can really be trusted you know you you don't have insight and usually it boils down to do you agree

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or disagree with the psychiatrist if you the psychiatrist says this is what I think this is your diagnosis

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this is the drug and you say okay that sounds great that's demonstrated insight if you say no I don't

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agree I don't believe in that diagnosis I don't trust this science that particular drug I do not

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like it now you're demonstrating lack of insight that's pretty much what it boils down to in practice

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that's what they told you about your father they just said oh he's not really suffering he just

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has no awareness of what is going on with his disease well it's built into the criteria so the moment

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that they certified him under the laws in that jurisdiction of British Columbia the stamp on the

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form literally says unable to recognize the need for treatment and their own condition is something

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to that effect so it's built right in that this was their interpretation of him here is a person

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who's word whose perspective ultimately has no value and this is something that I return to

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repeatedly and I dedicate an entire chapter of the book simply to this issue of insight alone

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because it's so crucial to how we justify forcibly treating people it's really the moment of

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dehumanization you lose the human capacity to have and we should if we step back a little bit a

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little bit I mean I've known people that have strokes I know someone who was in a coma and there

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are medical conditions where it is true the person is in a position of a physical illness or an injury

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or stroke or something where that and I but the problem is that that framework is then imported

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incorrectly into something that's not that at all it's something completely different and then

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that's why it's so important to understand the disease model is often the origins of of this kind

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of dehumanization because yeah we will strap someone down and we will do surgery to them and we'll all

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see violence with you surgeries are quite violent but they're not in the sense of your respecting the

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human reality of the person there's true consent there actually is a disease process you're taking out

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a tumor there's a reason to tie the person down during the surgery this but that medical logic

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is completely not correct accurate real for the kinds of situations that we're talking about which

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are human experiences where subjectivity and emotions and consent really need to be listened to

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in a very very different way than a kind of a disease disease model that oh you have a head injury

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therefore we have to restrain you that's that's completely false to make that reference yeah

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my dad is actually a really good example in that sense too because you certainly was saying things

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from time to time in that period that were weird and things that you might not believe or if you took

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if you took it literally you'd kind of say no that's not true like he'd say like the ceiling is

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caving in you would look and no the ceiling's not literally caving in right now but he took that as

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you know it was his feeling right as metaphor for his experience yeah exactly a lot of us do feel

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the ceiling is caving in in the in the ear of echo side and climate catastrophe and political

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disintegration the ceiling does seem like it's coming down exactly and of course when you get into

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a heightened state that can also alter your behavior somewhat like another example was that he felt

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that a furnace might blow up again very much how he was feeling and yet then he proceeded to say okay

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we need to call the gas company to check the furnace and you can imagine if we'd let him do that a

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hundred times in a day you know not that I knew he would do that but if that had happened then okay

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they'd say this guy's certifiable get him locked up right but of course it's actually a reason

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of more response because his belief was it's going to blow up and so he's doing the thing that he

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was trained to do which is be a responsible gentleman as my father always was right and so it's not

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he's not that disconnected from reality and the reality is he would say that and then you kind of go

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oh come on dad you know you would get him on you know another topic and he would be his ordinary

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rational self right so it was also just something fluid moving off and on right no reason to discredit

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his value as a human being I see that a lot that one one moment of apparent weirdness or extreme

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like out of touch with reality is then used to disqualify entirely like suddenly you whereas actually

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I mean gosh it's so so often that someone who has a very strange belief that you wouldn't be able

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to maybe verify is perfectly capable and totally grounded and completely connected with so-called

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reality in the vast majority of the rest but everyone is focusing on this one little thing to

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disqualify them and say oh that's the presence of the this is the the microbe that we found

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under the microscope and therefore the disease is present and therefore the person just has this

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disordered thinking and now we can just open the door to completely negating their own choice

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in their own subjective reality and because we claim that they lack insight that's right that's

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right and that is widespread that is just so common that this is done I call it it's like a

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caricaturization of people right like I even say you make up this image of oh it's a homeless person

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who's chasing aliens and he's wandering into traffic I'm like okay I think that happens at times

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but then what happens? Does that person have any friends you know did they go for lunch today

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are they making sure they get dinner because often they are guess what if you offered them a home

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to get out of the rainy day do you think they'd take it I bet they would I meet these people yes

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you know people go have you ever seen some one psychotic and I'm like yeah I've lived with people

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I've seen their friends of mine you know and I guess I see them on the street as well and often if

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you stop long enough to not be afraid and talk to the person you find oh there's a whole bunch of

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other stuff going on that's relevant here and what else you know and to be quite frank with reading

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the story with your family I mean the providers seem way more crazy than him because they're

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they're the ones who are continually administering treatments that are making him worse going against

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his wishes and ignoring simple complaints or simple objections and then coming up with these

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completely outlandish ridiculous some of the things that they told your family are just just

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ridiculous on the on the face of them I mean one of my examples is that you know they said at one

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point when after nine rounds of electorshawk you know and he got better for about a week and a half

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and then just plunged right back to his state and they said oh well you know it's like we're trying to

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fill a gas tank and we didn't quite you know put enough gas in so now we're going to do 12 shocks

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in three weeks and and you know you can't help but be really disturbed by medical doctors talking

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about the functioning of the human brain with such a ridiculous analogy which really it speaks

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to their lack of sensitivity really to to the complexity of the situation it's widespread and it

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just leans on their authority oh they must be right they're the ones with the training people

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talk about I'm going to reset my brain that's something we hear in psychedelic therapy going to

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reset your brain oh your your your brain your mind is a computer oh okay well that's really

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that's a very sophisticated insight that you had or actually when I was hospitalized this is a

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story I've told many times they were considering electro compulsive they changed the name of they

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rebranded it oh it's different now it's not electro shock therapy it's electro convulsive therapy

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they were they wanted to give me electro convulsive therapy and one of the things that the doctors said

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he said well we don't know how it works I came and believe that he said this to me when it when

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as I'm remembering it but he really did say this and it was a rehearsed kind of thing that I know

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that he has said to other patients he says well you know we really don't know how electro shock works

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but you know how a TV when it doesn't have a good signal you kind of hit it on the top and then

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suddenly it'll come in that's literally what he said to me to convince me and the heartbreaking

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thing is that because I come in with some privileged some college educations and critical thinking I

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I know how to talk back to authority a bit because of how I was raised in my own experience I was

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be able to be skeptical but so many people just sort of bow their heads and they do the right thing

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socially which is defer to the authority of this person who is unfortunately I did not end up

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doing the my father did my father had multiple electro shock therapies back in the days when anesthesia

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was not used and it was clearly a punishment for him as a young as a young man when he was in the

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state hospital and that's one of the things that comes across so clearly in your book is that there

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is an uninterrupted continuity in the violence and abuses of the psychiatric system we have not entered

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into some enlightened age where we learn the lessons of the dark past and now we have a new

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psychiatric system no it's it's not only is it continuing but it's actually getting worse because of

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the magnitude of forced treatment and the magnitude of forcing people onto drugs in the community which

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you speak to which is one of the big surprising things about your research is that this problem has

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gotten worse and worse even as we're told well you know there's less state hospitals now so there's

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not as many beds well actually that's not true there's lots of beds and there's lots of forced

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treatment happening so I was very struck by the the crazy making moment when this authority figure

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says something just completely ludicrous to you and you're just powerless you just have to kind of

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swallow it because it happens so so many times in the mental health system that the providers

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put their own lack of being out of touch with reality their own lack of insight on display so

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flagrally and then they use it to exert their power so the story with your father and that that

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happened kept repeating that your family would ask again and again well what about this or maybe we

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should do this or maybe this and they would just come back to that really resonated with my own

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experience and so many other stories and people that I've talked to and friends and people in the

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community and people I work with that create really crazy making moment that the psychiatric system

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gets away with so often yeah well you know when someone's staring into your eyes saying you're

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insane you've lost touch with reality people often will go one way or the other understandably

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right they'll go yes yes ma'am yes sir you know okay tell me then what to do how can I save myself

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you know there's this transition of power in that moment that that can completely send somebody

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down a different life trajectory or they say screw you you're the crazy one and and that becomes

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their life trajectory and I think you know much like being assaulted in other ways it's unfortunate

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right because we all know that life is more nuanced than that right that we all have a bit of

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craziness in us and we all have a bit of sanity and sometimes the craziness is the good side of us

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and sometimes the sanity is the bad size and vice versa and for every person and it's fluid

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and it's changing right so that's reality we all know that it is the and so it's really unfortunate

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and I think that this is one of the polarizations that occurs in the system and the psychiatrist

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are at the root of it because they have all the power in this situation right they should be the ones

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that have are bringing nuance to the situation and saying okay understand that you might see me in

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this in this way right now but I am really trying to help you how can I help you right make it a

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collaborative enterprise truly the way they tell us they're doing it that part has been propagandized

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in the media right that that it is a collaborative and and of course for some people they've experienced

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it that way but this that is not what's happening predominantly in our psychiatric hospitals or

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in psychiatric wards when people are being enforcibly treated so what happened with your father let's

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get back to that aspect of the story started to do he did electroshock therapy he kind of improved

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for a couple of weeks or a week and then they said he needed more to fill the tank which is actually

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consistent with the work of Peter Bregan and Linda Andre about that if there is any efficacy

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is if there is any positive effect from electroshock therapy it's kind of like a head trauma if you

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hit someone in the head sometimes they will sort of oh I feel better now I don't have the pain and if

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you're hitting them also with with an immersed placebo expectation that you do this big ritualized

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treatment and that you're going to get better but then it doesn't last and it sounds like that's

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what happened with your father is it eventually the whatever positive benefit so-called that he got

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didn't last with the electroshock is that right yeah that's right so he got basically worse to the

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point where he was very debilitated didn't really know who he was or where he was I wasn't sure he

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could recognize me you know really we could still converse but he was very docile just very out of it

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and at that point we kind of argued to them look you know clearly this guy can't be said to be a

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danger to anything or anyone because he's barely functional and they seem tired of him and so they

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let him go in the care of my mother and she was fortunately retired as well so that she could

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take care of him and so she did and she's an amazing woman and she you know provided for him

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provided all the kind of support you would hope anyone would get in that kind of situation

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and by this point we had all sort of given up on the mental health system so she felt motivated

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than the girl cat just got to care for him directly at home so then your mom provided him basically

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with the care that he needed which was just patients and sanctuary and support and believing in him

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and believe having faith that he'll get better and yeah that's right and he started to kind of return

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a bit he's always been very self-motivated sort of man and they had given him a sedative out of

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hand to continue to take ironically that was the drug that made him feel the best he kind of go how

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does a sedative help with depression of course because depression is related to anxiety and anxiety

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really just like co-sus and it's like because all these things are really just about people having

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stressful experiences right out of hands a nice high you gotta you gotta admit it you know maybe

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you needed a break it's that's right and so I gave him research showing its addictive nature he

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was on a very small dose he weaned himself off on his own without even telling anyone he was doing it

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and so yeah and he had another good 10 years with my mom after that like most of his long-term memories

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returned but not that year around the electric shock and often he he did lose huge gaps so even just

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recently I was speaking with some of his sisters and they were saying that they were still like

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concerned about that those chunks of memory he had lost so it was pretty devastating I'm so glad he

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was able to come back home and he was able to regain so much of his life that he had lost and regained

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his memory and came out of the the depression even though there were some serious injuries that

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happened yeah but you know one thing he lost which isn't often talked about and I think it needs to

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be is it's because of that loss of memory caused by the ECT he never had a picture that he had gone

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through a difficult time and managed to get through that thing that can empower you as a person to say

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hey I've been in the darkness but you know what I remember now eventually I did feel better eventually

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I you know whatever it was I found new people in my life I knew opportunities you know he forgot

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that eventually he did heal himself right like he had lost that period of time so then he had these

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vague memories and we would relate to him some of what happened and he was horrified and it frightened

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him and so that's what he was ultimately left with absolute terror of if I ever need help

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I I'm desperately afraid of what could happen because I know what happened

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I'm just yeah it's very it's very powerful very touching it's reminding me of my own my own father

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who at some point later in his life he started to recognize that he needed some kind of support some

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kind of counseling some kind of therapy which he had been completely objected to his whole his whole

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life he had been completely not interested in any of that and he said to me that he had gone and

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talked because he's a veteran he was in the Korean War and he told me I remember this he told me

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that he had gone and talked to the folks at the VA the veterans administration hospital in in his

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area in South Carolina and he asked them straight out if I start to go into counseling and things get

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rough for me are you guys going to maybe put me back in the hospital and what he said was and maybe

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to their credit they said well yes of course if you you know if you start to struggle too much we're

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going to have to put you back in the hospital and then he completely turned away from that he was not

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going to risk that he was absolutely terrified of being forced back into the hospital to the point

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of not taking a step towards care I mean his story is a little bit different because a lot of people

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they don't know that they're stepping into that but he really was trying to get help and so it's

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so tragic that they just were completely unwilling when it was so clear what he needed they were just

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so unwilling to actually provide him safe consent based voluntary counseling I subsequently discovered

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in my research that it's extremely rare for people to be offered anything else in psychiatric

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wards or psychiatric hospitals in North America it also makes me think that even when counseling is

387
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:46,840
offered or therapy is offered just as you said the force permeates so much that if you cross the

388
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:54,200
line if you become have suicidal feelings or if the therapist or counselor doesn't feel safe whatever

389
00:37:54,200 --> 00:38:01,560
that words means then you can get forced into treatment I actually had an experience recently where

390
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:09,080
I was curious about one of these chat counseling services offered by the Trevor project which is

391
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:18,520
specific to LGBTQ people and I think it's especially for youth and so I started chatting and I asked

392
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:25,640
whether my IP address and my location might be tracked down and the person who was chatting with

393
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,600
me would not tell me one way or the other and then finally they said well yes we just want to keep

394
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:36,120
you safe and it was clear that supposedly in this confidential setting I was going to be under

395
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:41,880
threat of forced treatment and talking with other people about this is so widespread with suicide

396
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:47,240
hotlines and counseling and in chat counseling and all these different services that are available

397
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:52,280
available now without that basic trust and safety how do you actually get support and help if

398
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:58,280
that fear is around and so many people are driven away from care because they're afraid of going

399
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:03,720
back into the system or having violence happen to them yeah and it does raise that question of I

400
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:08,760
don't understand how mental health practitioners can think that they can recently in function in

401
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:15,080
this environment I'm surprised that more of them aren't publicly speaking out against force

402
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:21,560
treatment because surely they know that this is just contributing to a widespread fear and widespread

403
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:27,240
lack of help seeking and it's so common when you call a counselor a therapist on their voice mail

404
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:33,640
or their email will say if you have a crisis call 911 it's just this reflexive thing they're

405
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:39,640
funneling people right into the medical industrial complex right into the carceral care system just

406
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,560
without even thinking about it because that's what their colleagues do that's probably what they were

407
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:49,800
taught in school and it's just it's again it's it's normalized it's so important to highlight

408
00:39:49,800 --> 00:40:00,280
you know how traumatizing these experiences can be for people this is just so widespread and again

409
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,320
as shocking to me that more mental health practitioners are not speaking out against force treatment

410
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,960
themselves because they see this on a daily basis and they're told it constantly by their own patients

411
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:16,680
it's it's often a lifelong trauma for people and and the worst part of it

412
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:24,280
is is the people who have suffered already so we have this wide range of people who are ending up in

413
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:32,120
the psychiatric system who have experienced childhood abuse sexual abuse assault rape you know all

414
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,880
sorts of brutality in their lives maybe from the time they were children onwards and and they

415
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,880
are really struggling from that and then they end up in a system that reproduces some of the same

416
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:51,720
traumas they're immediately disempowered they're forcibly stripped they're restrained like these are

417
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:55,880
things that these are the trauma these are the fundamental traumas that people have experienced and

418
00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:02,760
now the supposed helpers the people they turn to for help are imposing this kind of on them and it's

419
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:09,880
it's brutal and it becomes like so tragically scary because now they can't trust anyone they were

420
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,600
already this one of the most common effects of childhood trauma is that it's hard to trust people

421
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:21,240
and now the people you've turned to for help it it's like the the people who you know have a problem

422
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:26,520
in their community and turn to the police and the police beat them up right those people never feel

423
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:32,520
safe again anywhere and we have this vast swath of the population that's having that kind of experience

424
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:38,280
in the mental health system it's terrible and it's not just isolated cases at all doctors will tell

425
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,440
me this repeatedly oh you're just talking to an isolated case but if I look at the actual medical

426
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,160
records some of these same doctors wrote they don't portray those cases as isolated or unique at

427
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:53,080
all in the medical records so I know this is widespread common so let's get clear on that very clear

428
00:41:53,080 --> 00:42:01,000
about what forced treatment really is and how brutal it can be yeah yeah go ahead you know I found

429
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:07,320
some things that were just so dark even for me to handle that I couldn't work after for like days

430
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:12,600
and one of the decisions I made when I decided what to include and not to include in the book

431
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:19,240
was I decided that I knew there'd be a tolerance a limitation in my readers for how much darkness

432
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:25,640
they could handle but I also saw it all right I'm only going to include things that I know for a fact

433
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:33,400
are not rare that I could I know from my research and my interviews are absolutely common that

434
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:38,760
are representative of what's happening out there so I actually steered away from a lot of the more

435
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:45,960
serious types of extreme abuse that go on out there and even I do have a chapter about hospital

436
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:52,840
abuses and stuff but those were not uncommon so yeah so it's just part of the context for how the book

437
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,880
was written that I want people to know these are not rare types of cases when I'm talking about an

438
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,800
individual I mean I'm thinking about just the number of people that I've talked to who have

439
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:08,760
either been raped or sexually violated in a hospital and then they were told oh you're bipolar you're

440
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:14,680
sexually acting out sexually or you're hypersexual or they just were denied that it happened and

441
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,800
they had to roommate with the perpetrator or be on the same ward with the perpetrator that's a

442
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,760
malt that's a situation I've heard from multiple different people and I know that happens quite a

443
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:30,760
lot that there's sexual assaults that happen in in in patient units that's right and that's in my

444
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:38,760
book because we have massive lawsuits of different types of of framing you know around the stripping

445
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:44,920
videotaping there's all sorts of sort of sexual harassment you might call it so so that kind of stuff

446
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:51,080
yeah and and I I found things that were more extreme even I mean one of the things I touch on for

447
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,800
example that kind of gives you people a hint of the direction that goes is there sort of proven cases

448
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:01,880
of of people being detained under mental health laws and then being sold into prostitution and

449
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,960
slavery in America today so these were cases that the Department of Justice actually outed and

450
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:14,200
prosecuted and people went to jail but you're getting a sense that this is just so easy to do and

451
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,520
that's essentially what the Department of Justice was saying to me on the record in their interview was

452
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:24,280
we don't really know the extent of this but there's no reason to believe that that it's not

453
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,280
more widespread that's not a direct quote of anyone but that was the sense I was getting and you'll

454
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:34,200
see that reflected in the interview if you introduce into a society a kind of extreme power that's

455
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:40,360
unaccountable it will be picked up for all kinds of very very dark uses and I mean that's another

456
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,920
thing that I've seen and this is not talked about and I'll just say it because it's just true it does

457
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:52,200
seem like the staff in many of these inpatient units the staff that stick around the ones that

458
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:59,080
maybe even go for those kind of jobs there is a certain kind of sadistic cruel personality that gets

459
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:06,120
drawn and plays out sadism cruelty and abuse as part of their own gratification I know I have seen

460
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,920
that that seems to be a big problem I know that's not politically correct we're supposed to be building

461
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:18,040
bridges with professionals but a lot of these people should not be working in anywhere near human

462
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:23,720
the services industry or helping other people at all because there's a tremendous amount of abuse

463
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:29,960
that happens because someone is enjoying doing the abuse and and I think it's a it's a dangerous

464
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:37,400
position to put yourself in too right a very well-intentioned moral person can get into that position

465
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:43,640
and now that I have extreme basically total power over another human being like just take our

466
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,920
relationship right now one of us is suddenly given total control over the other person's life

467
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:55,160
how long will it be before I'm making decisions that you're going to find your abusive or vice versa

468
00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:00,680
right and in fact will be by any objective standard of somebody looking at us right in that dynamic

469
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:06,200
and that goes to the milgram k milgram study that you highlighted or the Stanford prison experiment

470
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,840
which yeah I think that that's it because you have to look back at things like the residential school

471
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:17,320
system for indigenous people and you have to wonder how could so many of these schools been so brutal

472
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,960
and corrupt and full of abuse and you can't help but think it was doing both it was attracting

473
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:27,080
people who wanted to have that kind of power over children and it was actually creating

474
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:32,360
its own corruption because in an environment where you have that sort of level of extreme power

475
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:38,600
a lot of people will naturally start to become a little bit more abusive without realizing it

476
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:45,880
because they just they have the power yeah parallels the conversations about sexual abuse and brutality

477
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,240
and torture that happens in the prison system that to what degree is the context of the prison

478
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:56,280
power imbalance sort of bringing that out of people and then to what degree or the the staff that

479
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:02,360
stick around and stay with it the ones who are get some kind of gratification certainly from their

480
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,400
own abuse histories there's no question I don't believe that there are evil people there are evil

481
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:15,160
behaviors and evil things that get done but this is a very very very very dark topic and

482
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:22,680
it sounds like your book even though it's it's very hard to read because of the extreme violence that

483
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,960
it surfaces that it's really there's actually a lot more that you didn't put into the book of

484
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,200
things that you've learned about and things that have happened because they're so extreme that they

485
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:42,200
don't fit into your your priority of looking at the normalized and common that happens in the system

486
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:48,920
yeah and it's important to highlight why because it does just produce a reactive dismissal then right

487
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:55,480
right oh well that's just an extreme case yeah it is the outliers the outliers I might have included

488
00:47:55,480 --> 00:48:01,240
I might have included them because to me they're still exemplar they exemplify the kind of power

489
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:06,040
the extremes of this power and the dangerous uh dangerousness of it but I made a decision not to

490
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,960
because I didn't want to provoke that reaction like oh you're just trying to paint everybody with

491
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,680
this like stream brush you know so no I tried to focus on more like what are we seeing

492
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:20,600
systemically here and again I want to say to any psychiatrist or any practitioner listening like

493
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:25,960
yeah I get it like there I interview practitioners for my book and I'm really grateful to them

494
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,920
and they talked openly about their own mixed feelings in this area and and I think they add a

495
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:36,200
great voice to the book and so I'll credit to those practitioners in the field who are willing to

496
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:41,640
have these discussions and enter into those dialogues but I really encourage them to speak out more

497
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,200
about the kind of abuses you and I it shouldn't really be us right it shouldn't it should be the

498
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:51,320
practitioners are saying hey we should not allow this they should be the one demanding oversight

499
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:56,760
standards and accountability in hospitals and places like this not the patients not the outsiders

500
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,840
right I mean yeah we're gonna do it but they should be the ones doing it and I'm very very

501
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:07,240
profoundly disturbed by the ongoing lack and in fact the way the ones that do speak out actually get

502
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:13,160
blowback they get harassed they get criticized they have repercussions in their careers like that

503
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,640
that's just terrible yeah I spoke with a professional in Europe who said something that was really

504
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:24,280
eliminating to me she said that she doesn't want the power to lock people up and I was thinking

505
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:29,640
well wait a second how does that and she said yeah because the families and the society are expecting

506
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:36,040
her to be the gatekeeper on keeping people so-called safe and if she was prohibited from locking people

507
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:40,360
up it would give her a lot more freedom to do her work because she wouldn't feel like she was

508
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:45,240
going to be blamed and have the finger pointed her when someone kills themself or when someone wrecks

509
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:50,840
their life in a manic so-called manic episode or they cause something really disturbing that happens

510
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:56,040
because there wasn't an intervention and then she's blamed for being the one she doesn't want that

511
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:01,080
power now I thought that was a very interesting perspective absolutely and I've heard that too and in

512
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:07,960
fact one of the psychiatrists in my book says that as much she essentially says you know she's witnessed

513
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:14,360
the incredible lack of rights that patients have and the weight of her word in these hearings

514
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:21,000
and says yeah I would much rather that these patients had really good legal representation and that

515
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:27,560
it was a legitimate kind of hearing that truly took place so that some of that responsibility was

516
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:33,880
not upon me as the treatment provider but was upon the judges to weigh in and really make a decision

517
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:39,000
but right now by a large judge just follow the lead of whatever the psychiatrist says and this

518
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:47,080
particular psychiatrist is in fact living by her word and has been being an expert witness testifying

519
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:54,520
in cases for on behalf of the patients basically trying to say okay here's my second opinion in

520
00:50:54,520 --> 00:51:00,120
this situation and weighing in to try to at least provide a little more space and different

521
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,680
points of view in the hearing room for a judge to hear to put you know because that effectively will

522
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:10,040
put pressure on a judge then to go okay I guess I better think this through and not just rely on

523
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,840
the one psychiatrist who's giving me only one point of view on what should happen and that's one

524
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:21,240
of the things that we should think about is professionals reading your book and who want to do the right

525
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:26,440
thing what's their pathway and there are organizations there are other professionals out there and I

526
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:31,320
just encourage people to not be alone you've been given this incredible privilege and power and

527
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:37,480
you keep the the esteem and the money in the marketplace that you've earned from the system turn it

528
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:42,040
around and start using your voice join with other professionals join the movement to abolish

529
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:47,880
forced treatment because you you have that power and authority use it in the right direction don't

530
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:53,240
just step away or throw your hands up or say well none of my all of my colleagues are going along

531
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:58,680
with this so it's not really my that's the bystander the fact that's fundamentally how evil stays in

532
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:03,960
place is the bystanders don't speak up so if you are a mental health professional this book is

533
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:09,160
absolutely for you and hopefully this will inspire you and push you to say I'm not going to be part

534
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,720
of this I'm going to join forces with other professionals and with the psychiatric survivor movement

535
00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:18,520
and the critical psychiatry movement is saying no more we need to have an alternative to this

536
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:25,080
yeah let's give a plug to Jonathan Godspeed the leader of the critical mental health nurses

537
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:31,400
network out of the UK he's advocating that nurses in psychiatric hospitals should have the

538
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,880
right of conscientious objection to administering forced treatment because he said he found himself

539
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:41,480
in that situation a lot when he was working in a hospital he found that while other people thought

540
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:47,640
this person should be restrained and forcibly drugged and his expert professional opinion was not

541
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:53,960
and yet he felt not comfortable constantly being the one to try to break from the team and all of that

542
00:52:53,960 --> 00:53:00,040
so it was great interview I really appreciated his contribution to the book as any of the other

543
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:05,880
professionals and practitioners that spoke with me whether anonymously or on the record as he went

544
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:11,640
fully with his own name so yeah like I think that's an example of the kind of thing nothing else

545
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:16,360
it brings it into dialogue that hey there are nurses that care and he highlighted for me at the

546
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:23,160
same time a very chilling story where he now trains nurses and he said yeah he observes in his

547
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:29,160
students the first time they see forced treatment and operation in their training a lot of them just

548
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:34,680
get out of it they just quit and he said but unfortunately who does that leave to do the job

549
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:44,120
chilling that's a very disturbing image and as a result of that extensive testimony and leadership

550
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:51,480
let's give credit to Tina Minkowitz the lawyer Tina Minkowitz and a survivor who has done so

551
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,600
much work on the convention on the rights of persons with disabilities testifying to the United

552
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:04,280
Nations for many years and not only her of course many many groups and individuals representing

553
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:09,880
people who have been subjected to forced treatment testified to the committee mind freedom as

554
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:16,360
well was involved in that process so they testified to the UN committees and in ultimately the

555
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:22,760
convention on the rights of persons with disabilities declared that all people with any kind of

556
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:29,320
disability should have equal rights before the law and should not be subjected to arbitrary

557
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:34,840
detention on the basis of their disability those are two of the key criteria in the convention such

558
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:42,360
that it's now been declared that forced psychiatric treatment is a form of torture and the World

559
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:48,040
Health Organization has also taken that position and and that's a very hopeful development it's a

560
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:53,960
symbol it's out there and since that time both Canada and the United States governments have been

561
00:54:53,960 --> 00:55:01,000
repeatedly reprimanded by the United Nations and the World Health Organization for not doing more

562
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:07,720
to begin reducing the use of forced treatment and they are advocating abolishment of it all

563
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:14,120
together and the World Health Organization has issued guidances to communities highlighting in

564
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:19,080
one case that I saw probably other cases in all these many guidances they put out but they highlighted

565
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:25,640
a fia house, wadflower alliances, a fia house is one of the models that can be used and emergency

566
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:32,680
respite run by peers to to help each other not end up in a psychiatric hospital so highlighting

567
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:37,160
examples like that of different approaches to this kind of stuff and that is what we absolutely

568
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:47,400
need more of we do see organized effort by psychiatrists now to try to amend the CRPD or get rid of it

569
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:53,880
altogether because they are seeing the writing on the wall here because this has engaged the

570
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:59,160
disability movement in North America and it's important to recognize that one of the fundamental

571
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:06,040
things that Tina Minkleitz had highlighted at the United Nations was that whether or not you agree

572
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:13,400
that you have a disability or agree that you have a mental disorder quote unquote is not the issue

573
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:19,240
the issue is somebody can impose that diagnosis upon you and you can be subjected to this laws

574
00:56:19,240 --> 00:56:24,760
therefore everybody should be protected against them so that was kind of her her roughing in of how

575
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:32,120
we might understand disability in this context that I can be actively made disabled by someone else

576
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:37,880
even if I still don't think I am disabled but that makes me subject to mental health laws but also

577
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:44,440
protects me with the CRPD I am now a person with a disability in that sense even if I don't think I am

578
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:49,800
I am and that's nice because I can now be protected by it that's kind of loosely how she framed that

579
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:55,400
argument and it was very it's been very very helpful to understand how mental health laws work in

580
00:56:55,400 --> 00:57:01,880
this context so moving ahead now we have a wider understanding in the broader disability community

581
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:09,880
that mental disability as in mental disorders can be understood in the same frame and therefore

582
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,920
those right the rights of those people should be protected just as those of a person who cannot see

583
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:19,800
those of a person who cannot hear those of a person who cannot walk also need to be protected

584
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,720
so too to the rights of a person with a mental health diagnosis of some kind

585
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:29,880
so one of the things that's really remarkable about your book Rob is is how you document because a

586
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:36,600
lot of it it's hard to document because there isn't enough researches and record keeping

587
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,560
about what's actually going on but how you document that actually the number of forced treatments

588
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:47,320
is on the rise that the number of people locked up is on the rise this problem has not gotten better

589
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:54,120
since the the big push of psychiatric survivor movement activism in the 70s and 80s and the kind of

590
00:57:54,120 --> 00:58:00,680
formal mechanisms that are supposed to protect human rights like appearing before a court and having

591
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:08,520
a certain process that goes goes on and none of that has actually really reduced the problem the

592
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:13,160
problem has actually gotten worse which was was something that I've known intuitively but it was

593
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:19,400
very powerful for me to see that documented by your own research so tell us a bit about that and

594
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:24,520
what you discovered in writing the book there's a narrative out there that because the

595
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:33,720
silence closed and from the 1950s to 70s that now it's there's so few beds the laws have become

596
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:40,440
so strict and rights protecting that it's almost impossible to psychiatricly detain anyone even the

597
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:45,480
most quote unquote dangerous and severely ill can't be detained this is the narrative that's out

598
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:50,200
there and what I discovered is this is a narrative that's been very consciously and deliberately

599
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:57,240
put out there by treatment advocacy center pro-force psychiatrist E. Fullertory who have been

600
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:04,920
bankrolled enormously by a billionaire and that this narrative has been embraced very much

601
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:11,000
by the news media because psychiatrist by and large find it helpful as well because it it helps

602
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:17,880
stir funding for the mental health system and so they haven't really contradicted it and also

603
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:24,120
nobody's really done a count so it was just kind of floating out there but I could see working in a

604
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:29,320
community there's no way that these large hospitals are accounting for everybody who's getting

605
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,560
forcefully treated I could see that visibly some like what are those numbers where who are these

606
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:39,160
people what are these institutions what's going really going on and so what I discovered is first

607
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:44,280
of all we know that the laws have been broadened everywhere across North America they're very broad they

608
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:49,320
can they can virtually apply to anyone now it's far beyond danger to self-reathers which itself

609
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:54,360
was very amorphous because what does it really mean to endanger yourself holy vague yeah but now it's

610
00:59:54,360 --> 01:00:01,400
just things like if you might mentally or physically deteriorate in some way which could make you

611
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:06,680
commit a bowl in future a very sort of or well in you know what does that even mean type stuff

612
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:11,160
this is what's written into law now this is yeah this is happening in California they're rewriting the

613
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:15,800
law to make it even less restrictive so force treatment is even more because we already know that the

614
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:21,160
laws aren't preventing force treatment this is going to make the net even wider and it seems like

615
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:26,600
what is happening is that the society is moving towards force and incarcerating people because it

616
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:32,440
doesn't want to deal with social issues like homelessness and poverty and the widespread isolation

617
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:39,320
and the deterioration of our cities and communities so there's two crucial pieces one is when I did get

618
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:44,280
numbers and it's very hard to get numbers that people don't collect them they don't release them

619
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:52,360
it's a mess wherever I manage to find number actual numbers I could see that they were skyrocketing

620
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:59,240
like by that I mean doubling tripling over the course of five ten years everywhere I could find

621
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:06,760
numbers in the last sort of two decades like so I had that evidence and then with amazing coincidence

622
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:14,680
and good fortune researcher David Cohen and one of his PhD students G Lee down at UCLA did their own

623
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:23,400
five-year quest after numbers and so they they did far better than I did in terms of getting some

624
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:30,520
stuff and they released that study and showed that the same thing it was doubling in lots of jurisdictions

625
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:37,560
you know about 22 states where they found continual data it was accelerating at three times

626
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:44,600
the population growth so this was this is widespread across North America that more people are being

627
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:50,360
psychiatrically detained and usually that leads to force treatment and I want to give one example

628
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,520
because those don't even touch they're the tip of the iceberg so this is an example that I don't

629
01:01:54,520 --> 01:02:00,200
recount in the book because it would have taken too long but it's you know but in Maryland recently

630
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:05,480
which is actually the home of treatment advocacy center they had a political campaign to expand

631
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:11,400
force treatment so I went and said well how many of you are forcibly detaining now they didn't know

632
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:17,880
then the number came back it was around 72 a year something like this I'm like okay I'm thinking

633
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:22,680
this isn't right are you sure they're kept going yeah yeah yeah it's right it's right and then finally

634
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:27,800
they went oh and now this is the government right was this document this request went to their media

635
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:34,360
freedom of information people multiple departments were all getting seaside telling me state of

636
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:40,920
Maryland 72 people a year you know and it was me going I'm thinking this number is right finally I

637
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:48,360
get the actually we have no idea what the number is that's just for the state hospitals right and I'm

638
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:55,320
like yeah okay so who has the numbers so in Maryland they direct me to the public defender the public

639
01:02:55,320 --> 01:03:03,960
defender said yeah it's more like 4,000 and then we had a back and forth about that and about okay

640
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:08,200
where those numbers coming from what have you got what and they agreed with me because I said I

641
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:13,320
don't think those are complete and they said yeah we think you're right about that we're currently

642
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:18,920
in a process of trying to get the rest of the numbers which is there is this vast pool of people

643
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:25,160
who are being detained before they're formally committed right so that legal process of actually

644
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:29,960
getting a hearing and being involuntary committed people can be held for long periods of time before

645
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:35,720
them can be three three days or 10 days and then a lot of a lot of violence can happen in that short

646
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:41,800
period depending on the jurisdiction yeah a lot can happen you can often insert in jurisdictions you

647
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:48,280
can be forcibly drug definitely if it's considered an emergency though that's not defined so yeah so by

648
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:55,400
the end of it a year later till we got the final numbers it was more like 9,000 so now we've gone

649
01:03:55,400 --> 01:04:01,480
basically up from 72 people to 9,000 people per year in the state of Maryland right and is even

650
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:06,600
that the full number and we should remember that the 72 number which is completely a cover-up

651
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:12,120
and it's being used to say we need more force treatment that's being pushed by the leading

652
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:18,600
advocacy group that is claiming to speak on the behalf of the needs of people in emotional distress

653
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:24,760
which is this e-fullertory the treatment advocacy center which is funded by essentially a

654
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:31,080
fanatical completely not related to anything that has to do with the research political agenda by

655
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:37,400
a family member the Stanley family which has this very wealthy foundation the Stanley foundation

656
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:44,200
they just been pushing basically a media message and a media lie for many many years and they're the

657
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:50,760
ones that the media are focusing on and the legislation here's about their forefront of the lobbying

658
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:57,720
they're the forefront of policy making and they're off by a factor of 72 versus many many thousands

659
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:04,040
at the heart of their of their argument well to be fair to treatment advocacy center in this case

660
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:10,200
they weren't using any numbers and they had that number 72 that was the first time it came out

661
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:15,800
and I'm not even it was like 30 72 somewhere around there right but the point is I the first time

662
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:21,640
it came out was when I was sort of rooting around asking for it right now okay so the point is this

663
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:27,400
they all this advocacy was going on yes we got to forcibly treat more people and nobody had any

664
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:33,240
clue how many were currently being forcibly treated that's the issue right they're operating in darkness

665
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,680
so what's driving this Rob because you said before and this is something we have to remember that's

666
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:41,400
lots of people are making lots of money off of this this isn't just a failure of compassion

667
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:46,200
they're actually as an incentive to put people in the hospital because I've talked to so many people

668
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:51,160
who were they police come they get locked up they go into the hospital that they're for four days

669
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:56,280
or there for six days they're violated they're abused they're forced into drugs finally they come

670
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:01,560
out and then they get a bill for the force the treatment that they didn't consent to so this is a

671
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:07,000
business model as well is that what you think is driving a lot of this is the financial combined

672
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:12,520
with the stigma and the fear and that we don't know what to do about people well I explore this issue

673
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:19,800
in the book it was great that my publisher agreed that I could cover both Canada and the United

674
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,440
States because what I said is we have these two very different healthcare systems yeah and it's

675
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:31,720
very interesting to see how remarkably similar they are and and so I do that in the book and

676
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:38,920
what we find is that it's playing out largely similarly in privatized healthcare in the public

677
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:47,000
system in both countries so something else is driving it now definitely I look at real blatant

678
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:53,160
mass scale fraud for profit that's absolutely occurring it's absolutely on the rise the department

679
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:58,360
of justices on the case they have no idea the sheer scale of it they didn't want to talk about it

680
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:03,880
but they're prosecuting cases constantly they're investigating cases constantly there is widespread

681
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:09,400
mass scale profiteering going on in involuntary mental health treatment you mean the providers

682
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:14,120
just making up things or putting someone in the hospital without any real reason or just grabbing

683
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:20,600
someone because they they want to feel bad that's right just just literally rounding people up

684
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:27,880
yeah especially especially after vulnerable people so they might go into homeless encampments or they

685
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:34,680
might go into halfway houses support groups for mental health support groups or addiction support

686
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:40,920
groups and they might sell a story they might literally just round people up they give kickbacks

687
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:45,800
in assisted living facilities to the operators of the facilities to take away people who might

688
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:50,680
have severe dementia and lock them up and start billing Medicare and Medicaid but these are the

689
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:55,000
excesses of this of this is not really the root of the problem these are kind of like the fraud

690
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:59,720
excesses this is like what's gotten built on top although we don't really know the extent of it

691
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:05,960
but I do want to give an example so universal health services is the biggest psychiatric hospital

692
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:11,640
chain in America 200 hospitals they're making billions of dollars in revenues off of those hospitals

693
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:19,880
alone every year they recently settled with the Department of Justice for $117 million for a number

694
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:26,680
of their hospitals doing exactly what we're talking about essentially another another mechanism for

695
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:31,400
it incidentally was free mental health assessments come on in for free mental health assessments and

696
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:35,800
then they were locking people up and so they settled with the Department of Justice and the press

697
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:42,520
released a laser out these people did not need to be locked up they did not need these treatments

698
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:47,560
so a settlement in the sense that the court ruled in favor of the plaintiffs and penalize them and

699
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:53,640
made them pay $117 million because they had done all this fraud well you H.S. essentially

700
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,480
assigned off they I don't even know that it actually that particular case even went to court in

701
01:08:57,480 --> 01:09:01,880
the end it was a series of investigations there were some whistle blowers involved

702
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:08,120
Buzzfeed news had done a series of articles about it back in 2016 that actually were part of what

703
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:14,040
prompted I think the Department of Justice to look more deeply into it but they're one of many so

704
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:20,280
there are a lot of other types of chains smaller facilities larger facilities involved in this kind

705
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:26,360
of fraud so this is the excess that's happening on top of the root of the problem I think so so my

706
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:33,080
assessment of what's really going on is that it is a broader buy-in in our culture to the mental health

707
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:38,920
system because many people now are you know they are going into it voluntarily and they may feel

708
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:45,320
that it's helping them in some way and that's a very much part of a big mass cultural movement and

709
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:50,840
because of that along with it there's this belief that forced treatment must be helpful and so

710
01:09:51,480 --> 01:09:57,400
it's being used and as you pointed out earlier what I also look at is there are also very concrete

711
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:02,760
political uses for this so one of them is the homeless population we should be very clear

712
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:08,680
I think we don't have good data unfortunately anywhere but my suspicion is based on my research

713
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:13,480
that the homeless population that are getting forcibly treated is actually a relatively small group

714
01:10:13,480 --> 01:10:18,280
within the group that are being psychiatrically detained and forcibly treated it's just one of many

715
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,680
groups so people need to understand that that is we aren't talking about homelessness my book is not

716
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:28,360
about homelessness right it's it's about a much wider spectrum of society like one of the biggest

717
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:32,760
groups that are being detained right now is actually school children not homeless people school

718
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:38,680
children are being directed by school administrators and and teachers up to psychiatric hospitals and

719
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:44,280
often police are being called to take those children up children is young as six as the Tampa Bay Times

720
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:50,120
is reported in Florida so that that's an example so it's not the homeless population only but that's

721
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:55,240
one of the areas where it's being clearly used for political purposes governments don't want to

722
01:10:55,240 --> 01:11:01,160
deal with their affordable housing problem and even though it costs more to define it as a medical

723
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:07,000
problem and put these people into medical care costs much more than affordable housing would they're

724
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:12,760
going in this direction because either ideologically they don't agree with the with the welfare state

725
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:17,400
or disability supports or anything like that or they simply don't want to admit the failures of

726
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:23,000
their economic policies or also it's the path is the path of least resistance there's not pushback

727
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:27,320
there's nobody there's no political force saying don't do this so it just that's where that's where

728
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:34,200
everyone kind of ends up going that's right right the homeless population does not have you know a mass

729
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:41,160
union with enormous financial clout that is lobbying in Washington and all the state governments

730
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:46,760
exactly so as a result they're an easy target yes psychiatric survivors don't have that kind of

731
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:53,400
cloud or lobbying either yeah and the best evidence for that is is the vile prejudice you'll often see

732
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:59,720
directed at those populations it's it's easy and it's transparent in a society it's it is a form of

733
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:08,040
of saneism as as Michael Perlin would call it a lot of people call it now like racism or sexism or

734
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:13,960
other types of sort of real prejudice you can see this sort of classist prejudice against the

735
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:19,320
poor and the homeless and people who have addictions and things like that that that is directed it's

736
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:24,200
very visible in our society and this is one of the ways that it also gets traction with governments

737
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:29,000
like yeah get those people yeah and but and on the other side of it there's this sort of the

738
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:33,960
anti-pregidist or the anti-stigma folks are saying oh we need compassion we need caring for

739
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:38,600
these populations and then that gets twisted and we need more services we need more money into the

740
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:43,800
nonprofit industrial complex we need to actually have more treatment and then the forced treatment

741
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:49,800
comes in along with that yeah and to emphasize that this is something I explore in the book as well

742
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:56,920
and I say that involuntary psychiatric detentions and forced treatment wed the conservative police

743
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:04,760
state and the liberal nanny state in a very natural sort of way they they fit together very well

744
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:11,560
well said and that's just yet so on the one hand you'll see forced treatment often portrayed as

745
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:17,800
this is the compassionate thing to do how could you is a caring person not do this and really at

746
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:23,400
the same day if you switch to another media outlet you can see it as we have to control these people

747
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:28,680
they don't deserve our compassion right and often even within the same article you'll see these two

748
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:34,440
or well-earned double think kind of points of view being sandwiched together as if they make some

749
01:13:34,440 --> 01:13:40,120
sort of logical sense and so into this goes the context of like either we're gonna neglect these

750
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:45,240
people because we don't care about them or we're gonna force them because we have this misunderstood

751
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:50,920
nanny state view of what's actually beneficial but I wonder whether this could be framed as sort of

752
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:56,840
forced treatment forced psychiatric care becoming like a diabolical safety net it becomes a way of

753
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:01,720
catching the problems of the society without actually dealing with the problems of society a

754
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:07,320
little bit like the prison industrial complex is in some ways and then I wonder whether you've

755
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,920
thought about well what would it actually take to build a society because I know a lot of your work

756
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:15,080
has been about community building what would it take to build a society where we don't actually

757
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:20,600
force people into these terrible dilemmas of either neglect or force or we're just gonna

758
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:24,920
not help people are we gonna forcibly inject them and assault them and put them in a hospital where

759
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:29,800
we're actually caring for people and creating communities but I mean is this fundamentally about

760
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:35,000
breaking the stranglehold that capitalism has in our society what what is the buy-in what are the

761
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:41,880
driving forces and how do we unearth those and overcome them well I mean the mental health system

762
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:47,960
as a sort of policing tool has been operational like this for hundreds of years so that's definitely

763
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:54,360
an issue sort of the what its function is in society kind of capture people who are different and

764
01:14:54,360 --> 01:15:00,840
deviant and maybe not breaking laws but we still want to control them that tendency but one of the

765
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:07,160
key things I highlight and emphasizes it's just the medicalization that we've got going on that

766
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:13,560
prevents us from at least being honest about what our intentions are and what's really happening so

767
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:20,440
we've got this big buy-in in our society the neuro biological thinking and with that medicalization

768
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:27,800
of all sorts of issues and problems and concerns and suffering and and behaviors out there so because

769
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:34,040
of that it's a big big wide net and out of that then comes the logic of force oh well if it's a

770
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:40,600
medical problem then we should correct it with a medical intervention and so that's the danger

771
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:46,680
and I think that it's hard to get at it but I think when you look at it in terms of how we're taking away

772
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:52,200
people's civil rights under the guise of it that's the wake-up call to kind of back up and go should we

773
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:57,240
be medicalizing everything because as long as it's all voluntary well why not I've decided that I'm

774
01:15:57,240 --> 01:16:02,600
going to interpret my distress as a neuro biological problem and take a drug for it and I'm happy

775
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:07,320
why do you have a problem with that you know you can kind of make an argument like that the problem I

776
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:14,200
then say is well yeah except you you fomenting that point of view out there is leading to a whole slew

777
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:20,440
of people who don't think like you do being subjected to the same drug and maybe at a 10 times higher

778
01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:24,920
dose and maybe five more drugs with it that they don't want and don't like an earn helping them that's

779
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:30,360
the problem and so we need to take the medicalization out of this and that goes right to the legislation

780
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:37,720
and the laws so mental health law has clearly articulated that medical doctors are the supreme

781
01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:45,000
beings of decision-making within this sphere and consequently all non-drug practitioners are

782
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:51,160
subjected to this as well you know all patients are subjected to this so nobody can really escape

783
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:56,200
the medicalization net unless we rupture that right at the heart of the laws so that's where I kind

784
01:16:56,200 --> 01:17:03,240
of tackle it from a legal point of view so even even in a slightly more socialized medical

785
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:09,560
medical system let's say Canada versus a predatory capitalist medical system you still have the

786
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:15,000
essential problems what I'm hearing is the medicalization of the problem of social problems and

787
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:19,880
that doesn't allow us to think about whether capitalism is working or not working because we don't

788
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:28,200
even discuss the problems as social human problems like poverty and trauma and abuse and housing and

789
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:34,040
and jobs and and supporting people in their lives we think of it purely in terms of disease and

790
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:39,000
medicine so that's really the heart of it and then what drives the medicalization in your view is

791
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:45,320
really the profit piece of it is it the fear piece of it is the entrenched cartel of the pharmaceutical

792
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:52,600
doctor complex that's out there everyone makes money in the space right not the patient the patients

793
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:59,480
the only one the patient is being exploited financially throughout this system right so everybody's

794
01:17:59,480 --> 01:18:04,920
making money whether they're operating in a nonprofit model or for-profit model so I think that's

795
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:10,200
important that livelihoods are at stake here and lots of them and that's another thing I show in

796
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:15,160
the book this system is not underfunded by any stretch of the imagination it's about 200

797
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:20,520
billion dollars a year in America which which system the mental health in general or the

798
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:25,160
mental health system more widely so not just the involuntary treatment system although that's a

799
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:31,960
very big chunk of change as well 220 billion dollars every year and in Canada it's comparable as in

800
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:37,480
about 16 billion dollars a year given Canada's smaller size and cheaper healthcare system in many

801
01:18:37,480 --> 01:18:41,880
places in Canada it's worse than in the United States and by worse I mean the rates of forced

802
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:47,880
treatment are higher and that's because everybody's got universal health insurance so you know nobody

803
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:55,000
ever gets kicked out of the system access they have access right right like they can in America and

804
01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:01,080
I've heard people say you know that thank god my insurance ran out that's what happened to me I

805
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:06,760
was at the brink of getting electorshock therapy my insurance ran out and so in a weird twisted way

806
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:12,600
the capitalist in privatized healthcare system worked in my favor at that at that moment and this of

807
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:19,160
course underscores the folly of a more access equals better results framing of the issue because you

808
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:23,800
have this access and you have the funding in the can't can't assist him but it's producing more

809
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:29,640
violence in some context yeah like everybody the same arguments are playing out here it's like everybody's

810
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:34,600
claiming the systems underfunded not enough people being forcefully treated and they're usually

811
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:39,160
doing it I'd say again with no numbers they're just sort of spouting this they don't even look at

812
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:45,080
the numbers if they're there often so this is what we have is widespread by into this way of thinking

813
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:52,360
and I think you know there there's so many issues involved like one of the things I show in my book

814
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:58,600
is trying to get at this I'm showing here all these different types of situations institutions

815
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:05,800
that use forced treatment powers situations families that are utilizing it that are calling on it

816
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:11,800
for all these different reasons and so I don't think there's one simple answer to why is this growing

817
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:18,200
it's growing because oh guess what this is a power that's readily accessible to an incredibly wide

818
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:24,920
range of of people to exert power over others and control others and it's being utilized more and

819
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:30,840
more and more for an incredible range of purposes that's why it's a very dangerous set of laws

820
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:36,920
Rob how does this relate to prisons as kind of a dumping ground for social problems and

821
01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:42,040
homelessness and mental health distress because that's part of the discourse especially in the

822
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:47,320
United States is we need we need more hospitals more asylum to more forced treatment because hey the

823
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:51,960
police come and whoa they could send they could send you to jail that's terrible oh how humane

824
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:56,040
they brought you for an assessment and so the police think that they're doing something humane they

825
01:20:56,040 --> 01:21:02,360
often let people get off without charging them for criminal trespassing or disturbing the piece or

826
01:21:02,360 --> 01:21:07,560
whatever it is battery and they so it's a mental health issue we're going to do the humane thing so

827
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:12,600
do you think that part of the appeal of this power of using forced treatment to get someone

828
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:19,000
into the system is to kind of see it as an alternative to the also dark torturous horrific

829
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:24,520
reality of the prison system yeah absolutely like I think the prison system is now being used as

830
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:31,400
part of the excuse uh to to move people into the psychiatric system and we didn't really talk

831
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:37,000
through that I want to detail a little bit here so where are these beds so there are there are so

832
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:42,360
many other beds that people don't talk about there are private psychiatric hospitals there are

833
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:48,840
general hospital psychiatric wards there are assisted living facilities group homes residential

834
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:54,840
treatment centers so the ever since the 1950s there's been this massive cultural investment

835
01:21:54,840 --> 01:22:01,880
in smaller types of facilities and a lot of these facilities are actually full on locked down

836
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:07,800
facilities or they're very very coercive meaning you're you are constantly being forcefully

837
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:14,280
drugged and if you stop taking it you just send up to the psychiatric hospital quickly to be put on

838
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:19,080
those drugs again and you know you're you're punished in that way so that's part of this system

839
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:25,000
we saw this so much in north hampton massachusetts which is a relatively wealthy very liberal very

840
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:32,280
you know do good or kind of community and all the group homes and the assisted living in the places

841
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:36,280
that we would visit people as part of freedom center it was completely coercive there was a

842
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:41,160
constant threat of we're going to throw you in kool-e-dickinson hospital if you don't follow the rules

843
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:48,280
here in this supposedly caring community alternative that's right and so the prison system now

844
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:55,560
is it's also a bit of a dumping run but what I found is the numbers aren't actually that high so you

845
01:22:55,560 --> 01:23:00,120
you the numbers of people who are struggling with quote unquote mental disorders who are in

846
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:05,160
prisons are pretty much what we statistically expect to see it's really not that high it's still a

847
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:09,960
high number it's a lot of people who are in prison that you know are struggling with mental emotional

848
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:15,880
difficulties but it's not like they've become the dumping ground no what I found is there are far more

849
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:22,920
people labeled with mental diagnoses that are in these other types of mental health facilities so

850
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:27,320
that's important to know the other thing that's important to know is this is actually being funded by

851
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:31,720
the pharmaceutical industry so this narrative right now so there are there's some pharmaceutical

852
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:38,600
companies that are philanthropically funding community initiatives to help people get the mentally ill

853
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:44,680
out of prisons quote unquote right right yeah and why are they doing that well it's often the same

854
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:50,040
companies that have injectable anti-psychotics so they know exactly what's going to happen that

855
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:54,840
that it will be persuaded that the best way to let quote unquote mentally ill person out of a

856
01:23:54,840 --> 01:24:01,240
prison is to give them a long-acting anti-psychotic injection that'll keep them tranquilized for a

857
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:06,600
month at a time and just require them to report monthly keep them heavily tranquilized this whole time

858
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:12,680
so they're they're standing to make ungodly amounts of money off of getting people out of these

859
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:17,480
prisons and into the community so that's one of the reasons there's a big push on for it and as we

860
01:24:17,480 --> 01:24:22,520
know farm a in the US funds both sides of the aisle tons of money going to the Republicans tons of

861
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:27,480
money going to the Democrats and you can't really cross what farm because it's cloaked in this it's

862
01:24:27,480 --> 01:24:33,800
the humane medicine health care is treatment access is this humane thing but it's a very twisted

863
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:39,400
yeah the story is whatever you want it to be if you need that hey we're gonna like control these

864
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:43,720
dangerous people in the streets that's the story they give you farm is your friend you want to

865
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:47,560
control the crazy is okay you want to you want to give good care to the crazies we're your friends

866
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:52,920
too we're the friends of everybody we're a big farmer exactly and and of course that also plays

867
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:57,960
out with the people who are pitching it so not only not only farmer right but but it gets it gets

868
01:24:57,960 --> 01:25:02,920
buy-in from the culture because it's things we want to believe it's an easier way of thinking about

869
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:07,880
this kind of stuff I mean that's part of the what I see just to enter personally with individuals

870
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:13,320
that I work with is that there's just no alternative there's nowhere to send your son or there's no

871
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:19,640
place for me to go or my friend to go or my family member to go and there's the burden of making

872
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:25,800
these decisions and the difficulty of of of care in the home and playing the role of the case manager

873
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:30,040
and trying to figure it out it's just it's so psychologically inviting to be able to just

874
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:35,960
offload all of that like kind of like a guilt sponge or responsibility sponge onto an authority

875
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:42,120
and do the right thing and then just hold on to this belief that's supported by the media and by

876
01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:47,560
the internet and by the whole society that yes this is the responsible thing to do but it puts the

877
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:55,080
family members especially in this terrible terrible position of being the transmitter of the violence

878
01:25:55,080 --> 01:25:59,800
so often they're the ones that pick up the phone or they're the ones that frame things in a certain

879
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:04,680
way are though the ones who enforce the need to because that's what they've been told told to do and

880
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:12,040
they honestly don't see any other perspective out there they don't see any other resources out there

881
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:18,040
it's so crushing for them so many of them that I work with that have been through the whole cycle

882
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:22,360
and then they've woken up and they've they've said well actually I realized that when we call

883
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:27,720
the police and we call the hospital and we believed what NAMI was telling us we believe what the

884
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:32,920
DBSA support group was telling us that medications are the answer and noncompliance means that the

885
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:38,360
best thing to do is for the hospital that they regret having done that and then they're stuck like

886
01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:44,680
well where is the where is the alternative and there's it's so not there and then my response is

887
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:48,840
that yeah let's be honest that it's not there and then let's get involved with activism let's get

888
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:53,000
involved with making some change let's speak up you're in a dilemma don't be isolated connect with

889
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:57,400
other family members that are in the same dilemma be part be an ally to the psychiatric survivor

890
01:26:57,400 --> 01:27:01,880
movement because there's no alternatives there's no other options that are available for people

891
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:07,560
or the other options maybe aren't being funded but that doesn't mean we can't create them

892
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:14,280
and I want to highlight just something that I cover in the book so what I call funnels into

893
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:20,200
detention that emerge from the community level and then I'll return to what I think can be done at

894
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:25,560
the community level differently so people need to understand right now that we've talked about

895
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:30,920
the homeless populations and that also applies to homeless shelters emergency shelters of

896
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:37,560
doing kinds women's transition homes rape crisis center type play like college campus clinics these

897
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:44,200
places all become funnels into force into hospitalization the assisted living facilities also

898
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:50,840
to supportive housing as you said because often the the people working at them are trained if somebody's

899
01:27:50,840 --> 01:28:00,280
acting strange call the hospital call 911 911 and all these many many mental health hotlines

900
01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:06,760
helpline hotlines right are our funnels in the detention they may trace calls and have people

901
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:13,560
taken up to psychiatric hospitals by police workplaces conflict resolution processes often

902
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:21,400
result in the underling in a hierarchy of power being pressured into psychiatric treatment of some kind

903
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:28,440
to try to resolve that conflict in the workplace nursing homes are another commonplace where people

904
01:28:28,440 --> 01:28:35,400
are being forcefully treated and family conflicts we've talked about those the military and veterans

905
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:41,400
that whole area wherever there's distress or misbehavior of some kind a lot of these people are

906
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:47,320
being funneled into psychiatric care and then there's a whole slew of more political uses of this that I

907
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:53,240
talk about in the book but right down at the roots of our communities we're all playing this role

908
01:28:53,240 --> 01:29:00,280
on a day-to-day basis in helping people end up getting detained against their will in psychiatric

909
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:06,840
hospitals and so that's what we got to change is how we're reacting to the kinds of things that are

910
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:13,640
merging and when we are in our relationships with others because all these funnels are

911
01:29:13,640 --> 01:29:21,080
emerging right down at the community level that's where we also need to make changes and so I

912
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:28,520
also work and volunteer in in an area of sort of what I'd call asset-based community development now

913
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:33,880
this was a movement founded by a guy named John Mcnight and I really encourage people to go out

914
01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:39,240
there and rediscover John Mcnight if you haven't he's almost 90 I think now but he wrote a terrific

915
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:45,080
little book the Careless Society Community and its counterfeits the Careless Society very influential yeah

916
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:52,360
it's a terrific little summary yes he was influenced by Thomas Oz and Ivan Illich and a number of other

917
01:29:52,360 --> 01:29:57,720
people thought very critically about health and mental health Ivan Illich yeah I did part of my

918
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:04,520
undergraduate thesis on Ivan Illich and very formative important yes yes okay yeah so I'm like saying

919
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:09,880
John Mcnight needs to come back into the heart of critical people who are thinking critically about

920
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:16,360
the mental health system because he did and he's an icon to this day in the field of community

921
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:21,480
development work still he's very widely still known there people who are interested in critical

922
01:30:21,480 --> 01:30:27,480
mental health should also be aware of his work so I'm inspired by him and I work with a couple of

923
01:30:27,480 --> 01:30:35,800
groups that do community work which is neighbor to neighbor type or neighborhood based bringing people

924
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:42,840
together to collaborate or using their strengths and assets collaborate on helping each other and

925
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:48,040
solving problems in their communities and stuff and why this is so fundamental important is

926
01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:55,160
Mcnight's main argument is simply that we have over-professionalized in this sphere suddenly now we

927
01:30:55,160 --> 01:31:01,800
can't help each other oh my god you're having a quote-unquote psychotic thought well the only

928
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:06,280
person that can possibly deal with you is a medical doctor with a drug you know and and Mcnight's

929
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:10,920
way back at wait a minute you know this has been part of the human condition for time immemorial

930
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:15,480
lots of people can flow in and out of these kinds of states all the time lots of people permanently

931
01:31:15,480 --> 01:31:20,760
live in them that's fine too how can we collaborate together how can we live together how can we

932
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:26,200
help each other yeah this is what I have an illogical the de-skilling of society we lose our skills and

933
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:30,520
it gets replaced with commodities and gets replaced with bureaucracies and we become more

934
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:36,760
impoverished with the modernization of poverty we actually become less wealthy because we lose the

935
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:42,760
things in the name of technologies and modernization and commodities in the market and progress we're

936
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:49,640
actually something very crucial about self-reliance and human to human neighbor to neighbor connection

937
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:57,080
in our own capacity to do things ourselves gets stripped away from this that's right and so often we're

938
01:31:57,080 --> 01:32:02,680
in this habit now of of looking to government to solve all of our problems but if you look at

939
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:08,440
governments they're probably creating so many now and they certainly are not leaders they tend to

940
01:32:08,440 --> 01:32:14,280
be followers if you can get a good grassroots movement going that educates that gets people

941
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:20,440
concerned about an issue often politicians can make a good decision and help that along but they're

942
01:32:20,440 --> 01:32:25,480
not they're often not leaders and more and more I think maybe we shouldn't be looking to them for

943
01:32:25,480 --> 01:32:31,080
leadership on a lot of these crucial issues we're facing as a culture as a society and rather start

944
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:36,680
building again from the grassroots up and then encouraging and supporting our governments to follow

945
01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:43,640
along with these things and so one of those now for example is this notion around the impacts of

946
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:49,400
climate change the kind of fears that the apocalyptic sense that it can bring as well as you know they

947
01:32:49,400 --> 01:32:55,400
start asking what can I do practically how can I even just prepare for the next emergency that

948
01:32:55,400 --> 01:33:01,960
might emerge whether it's wildfires or floods but also over the long term for the kinds of radical

949
01:33:01,960 --> 01:33:06,840
changes that may be maybe there and you don't even have to think of it only in terms of climate

950
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:10,760
change because of course there are so many other issues that our society's confronting right now

951
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:17,160
that also create great stress and difficulty for people at the individual level or at a group level

952
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:21,960
and so any of those you can pick and then you start to go what can I do with my neighbors to work on

953
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:28,040
that particular issue that I'm really concerned about that I think affects a lot of us and and so that's

954
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:31,800
we're trying to bring people together and there's lots of other people around North America that are

955
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:36,600
doing this kind of work right now and one of the things you see in that environment is quickly when

956
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:43,800
people do come together to do that as neighbors people in a community they get inspired themselves

957
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:49,000
and they start to what else can we do together it's like a revitalization of what democracy was

958
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:56,120
supposed to be about right and that's exciting and so why can't one of those things be hey how can

959
01:33:56,120 --> 01:34:04,120
we better help each other when we're really having intense emotional distress why not right what can

960
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:09,080
we do what do you need what do I need when we're going through difficult times what is what is

961
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:14,520
friendship look like at that kind of level and that's another term john mcnight likes to use he said

962
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:20,760
my model is friendship that we build friendships between more people because often it is friends who

963
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:25,800
are the ones that truly help us in these kind of really difficult situations friends make the best

964
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:31,080
medicine yes this is very deeply influential in my own thinking about the work that I've done with

965
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:36,840
Freedom Center and the Echers project and and I'm with you I'm on board a hundred percent and I

966
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:41,720
really like what you said is we can't sort of think of it in terms of what can what kinds of government

967
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:47,640
services do we need but we need to think about is how can the communities neighbors lean on our own

968
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:54,200
resources that we have that maybe we don't even see and then build these kinds of actually self-care

969
01:34:54,200 --> 01:35:02,200
self-support and the piece of that is I think it does clash directly with the logic of capitalism

970
01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:08,440
because if people don't have for example the time to go to meetings because they're working 60 hours

971
01:35:08,440 --> 01:35:14,440
a week or you want to build a community center but all the land is controlled by large

972
01:35:14,440 --> 01:35:20,200
developers or you want to put a space on your property so that you can have support groups

973
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:26,360
meeting in their own community space but the zoning laws then the government can maybe has to play a

974
01:35:26,360 --> 01:35:31,400
role some kind of progressive role of maybe clearing the way for community rather than thinking of

975
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:37,560
government services are the answer think of government as way of a lever to create these spaces

976
01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:42,520
for community because otherwise capital just moves moves in I mean I would love I would love

977
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:48,200
there to be a self-help network of people supporting each other coming off of meds and there is

978
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:53,080
and it's growing but that needs infrastructure there has to be money there has to be space the people

979
01:35:53,080 --> 01:35:58,680
who tend to be the ones who are volunteering a lot maybe they're retired or they're on a disability

980
01:35:58,680 --> 01:36:04,680
check they have funds what if we had universal basic income what if we could free up the space to

981
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:09,960
create these community alternatives so in that sense I would sort of see it in terms of

982
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:14,280
questioning what's the role of capitalism in making these community changes

983
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:20,840
possible and how do we protect ourselves from the ravages of capitalism because it prevents those

984
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:25,800
kinds of opportunities but I'm 100% on board with what you're saying that's what we need to think about

985
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:30,360
is how can neighbor to neighbor connections actually start to create that self-reliance

986
01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:36,280
and connection and including mental health because part of people are asking this exact same

987
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:41,160
question around policing and around poverty right now and homelessness they're they're the same

988
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:47,880
conversations and let's bring in the mental health piece to that so I have two responses to that

989
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:53,560
that I think are important one is you know John Mcnight honed his skills deep in the inner city

990
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:59,000
of poor communities so it's very interesting and this is what we've observed too that actually

991
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:04,200
it's interesting because if if if they're stuck in to talk about addressing what they're truly

992
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:08,440
concerned about and not necessarily what you came telling them they should be concerned about

993
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:14,200
they'll find the time and energy often to do it that said and I think that's just important because

994
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:19,960
it's inspiring you know but at the same time you know John Mcnight certainly sees a role for

995
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:26,440
government as well and so do I and you know like I don't want a dismantled uh in government entirely

996
01:37:26,440 --> 01:37:31,000
I think it plays a very important role particularly in the kind of society we have for the reasons

997
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:36,040
you're talking but the flow of capital is so distorting and one of the functions of government can

998
01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:42,920
be to attempt to redirect that it disproportion in the flow of capital but one of the things that

999
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:48,440
John Mcnight highlights is just that governments could be playing more a role of as facilitators

1000
01:37:48,440 --> 01:37:54,600
of these kinds of spaces so yeah they can provide a space for people to meet they could provide you

1001
01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:59,720
know and and help them bring together help facilitate we found many people just appreciative that

1002
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:04,440
we had facilitating skills for example that's all they really wanted someone to help convene

1003
01:38:04,440 --> 01:38:09,400
the meeting and run the meeting without creating a ruckus in the room right allowing people to resolve

1004
01:38:09,400 --> 01:38:13,880
conflicts through a third party and things like that that's all they really needed and wanted

1005
01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:17,480
and so that's enough right so that's the kind of thing a government could fund to say yeah we're not

1006
01:38:17,480 --> 01:38:23,640
here to tell you what to do or or where you we're here to facilitate helping you figure out together

1007
01:38:23,640 --> 01:38:28,120
what you want what would help you and then you tell us and if there is something but you know it

1008
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:34,360
doesn't start based on the premise of how can government meet you know your demands because often

1009
01:38:34,360 --> 01:38:38,920
now that's the cause of you go to government like give us this and governments are just in this

1010
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:44,280
pull with their own population and it's just a battle zone as john mnx says it's hard yeah it's

1011
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:49,240
hard to go to a meeting a government meeting now like a meeting with your government where it just

1012
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:53,880
isn't people yelling at them about what they're not doing right so governments become cynical and so

1013
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:59,480
did the voters right and is it not healthy is that helpful right and so he's saying how can we change

1014
01:38:59,480 --> 01:39:04,600
that dynamic as well where people are coming to say the governments come to say how can we help and

1015
01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:08,920
the people are saying yeah like that's all we just need a little assistance to do what we really

1016
01:39:08,920 --> 01:39:14,680
want to do we're not looking at you to solve all of the problems right guy have a good friend that

1017
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:21,240
works at a major supportive housing facility it's essentially like a housing first facility and

1018
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:25,560
that's really what it is even though it is somewhat professionalized government money's flowing

1019
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:30,120
through it and all that you know she highlights for me frequently how this is really needed like these

1020
01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:35,560
people are really struggling on a day-to-day basis just to kind of stay in their homes and to stay at

1021
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:41,080
a conflict with each other whatever it is so they play a role but it's a facilitation role it's

1022
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:46,520
just really being willing to get on the ground and go okay what is it what's the issue what's okay

1023
01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:52,120
how can we do a workaround here you know you're flooding your bathtub day in and day out we can't

1024
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:57,800
have that as the managers of the building why is that I'm wiki you do okay in the end you're going to

1025
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:02,040
get a shower and you're not going to have a bathtub because you're flooding out the apartment below you

1026
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:07,800
again and again you know and it's just a simple little workaround like that in the end right and it's

1027
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:12,440
something that you wouldn't get mandated by government ready couldn't it's like two people working

1028
01:40:12,440 --> 01:40:18,360
together on the ground going okay let's do this and we just won't tell anyone right because it

1029
01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:23,800
wouldn't be legal probably right you took away a person's bathtub how dare you right but she's

1030
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:28,600
highlighting for me you know what sometimes that's that's the solution that works for everyone

1031
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:33,880
what I'm hearing so much is that it's about listening deep listening to find out what's going on

1032
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:37,640
and she's thinking about a situation where there's someone I know that goes in and out of the hospital

1033
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:43,560
just because her apartment is at the corner of this building and so she's constantly interacting

1034
01:40:43,560 --> 01:40:48,040
with the people going down the hall if they could just move her to a separate apartment where she

1035
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:51,800
had a little bit more privacy there wouldn't be this conflict with the people in the hall with the

1036
01:40:51,800 --> 01:40:57,640
police getting called so there's often there those kinds of and so what I'm hearing is I very much

1037
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:03,720
resonate with this the idea of building the community capacity listening to community needs and helping

1038
01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:08,040
communities have the capacity to take care of their own problems so that you don't have that

1039
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:13,480
attractor of let's call services let's call the police let's call mental health to kind of put

1040
01:41:13,480 --> 01:41:19,000
people in the forced treatment machinery and then there's this other side of it which I think also

1041
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:25,400
you talk about in your book which is the recognition that forced treatment is a human rights violation

1042
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:31,720
because if we can get maybe lead if we can just have abolition my position is we just need to abolish

1043
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:38,760
forced treatment there needs to never be a psychiatric grounds for violating someone's due process

1044
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:43,800
right and locking them up there there's I just don't think that that I think we need to abolish that

1045
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:50,040
if we could get the human rights angle established and a lot of activists that I recently interviewed

1046
01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:54,280
best for more this is what things were we're talking about if you can get the human rights aspect

1047
01:41:54,280 --> 01:42:01,000
established it will force the society to find these other options to sort of say okay well this

1048
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:06,760
is off the table what are we going to do instead well let's take care of the problems in the community

1049
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:12,280
one thing when we talk about involuntary commitment I think it's really important too that we separate out

1050
01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:19,960
two different pieces of that puzzle one is the detention and one is the forced treatment

1051
01:42:19,960 --> 01:42:25,800
and I think that we could have a rational discussion as a society about are there situations where

1052
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:31,960
we might want intervene physically to prevent an adult who's not breaking a law but we still want to

1053
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:36,840
prevent them from doing something physically you know so that might be somebody running up and down

1054
01:42:36,840 --> 01:42:42,520
the halls of my apartment building yelling at night like maybe it's not really a criminal thing but

1055
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:48,120
we might still want to stop that person and so that's one debate and then the other issue is well

1056
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:53,160
should we be giving these people like powerful psychotropic drugs and electroshock and all of that

1057
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:58,680
right and I think we separate those out because much clearer and easier to understand why forced

1058
01:42:58,680 --> 01:43:05,320
treatment can be very bad and very destructive and why even many survivors will say oh I understand

1059
01:43:05,320 --> 01:43:10,440
why I was detained and that might not be their biggest concern or biggest problem right because if

1060
01:43:10,440 --> 01:43:15,560
you can understand the intervention that immediately makes it easier right for you to kind of

1061
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:20,920
process it emotionally the detention is often framed as a medical intervention because it's your

1062
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:26,920
your your psychosis but if we just say look you were someone you were found you were trespassing

1063
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:33,320
you were disturbing the peace and you were repeatedly doing it and so we intervened to prevent that

1064
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:40,040
ongoing crime from happening that starts to make an honest logic to me but as soon as we say oh we

1065
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:46,040
we thought that you had a mental health crisis we thought you were psychotic so we detained you

1066
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:51,560
under the mental health laws for medical treatment for evaluation for psychiatric evaluation that's

1067
01:43:51,560 --> 01:43:57,240
why we're why we removed you from the scene then you're back in Alice in Wonderland crazy logic so I

1068
01:43:57,240 --> 01:44:02,040
think that's really important to recognize that the other side of it of course is that there are

1069
01:44:02,040 --> 01:44:07,800
situations where someone is acting in a disturbing or frightening or maybe we're worried about them

1070
01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:13,400
and that and some responses need it that's why I often think of it as well it's a false dichotomy

1071
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:18,680
between forced treatment versus neglect there's this third path where yes if someone is repeatedly

1072
01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:23,720
causing a disturbance or they repeat some kind of responses needed but can we use a nonviolent

1073
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:29,000
response that doesn't violate their rights in the name of some medical fantasy about about what's

1074
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:35,800
going on for them yeah that's a very good point and a good reminder too for me like because you can

1075
01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:41,720
still if you're being detained for a very explicit purpose as you described it that's one thing but

1076
01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:47,400
if you're detained and now but you're being medicalized in that act of detainment that's now a new

1077
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:53,800
level of trauma that's being added to this situation so it lets really parse out demeticalize this whole

1078
01:44:53,800 --> 01:45:00,360
thing and then talk about these two pieces of the puzzle one is yeah as there's ever some reason where

1079
01:45:00,360 --> 01:45:06,280
a physical intervention of some kind may or may not be warranted and then separately what about

1080
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:11,560
this whole issue of drugging people with tranquilizing medications is that a really route we want to

1081
01:45:11,560 --> 01:45:16,760
go as a society and holding them against their will until they until they agree with a doctor that

1082
01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:21,640
they're going to continue to take their drugs and yes I am sick and Rob what I'm seeing is that a lot

1083
01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:28,440
of the prison abolition and alternatives to the police conversation the black lives matter

1084
01:45:28,440 --> 01:45:34,600
movement the George Floyd protest the incredible anti-prison industrial complex movement that we have

1085
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:39,320
a lot of the same conversations are happening what do we do when someone is being disruptive so what

1086
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:44,600
do we do when someone has violated someone or there's something that's going on that that the

1087
01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:50,360
society the community can't accept but we don't want to rely on a prison system it's just going to

1088
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:56,200
make things worse and disempower the community are you seeing this new emerging conversation also

1089
01:45:56,200 --> 01:46:02,280
happening in that context as people are talking about decarcerating and getting the medical industrial

1090
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:09,720
complex out of the policing kind of equation that's going on I'm hopeful it does seem to be

1091
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:17,240
occurring more than it was even just five years ago and certainly 10 years ago there's been a

1092
01:46:17,240 --> 01:46:23,000
definite upsurge in recognition one of the examples that Tina McQuit pointed out to me was the

1093
01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:31,000
breathe act that had been developed and it clearly highlights and compares the prison incarceration

1094
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:38,760
system to the psychiatric incarceration system and calls for them to be reduced and hopefully emptied

1095
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:44,120
and so yeah I think that dialogue and debate is tremendously important and indeed that's what I

1096
01:46:44,120 --> 01:46:49,720
want to highlight across my book is one of the reasons I tried to show how many people this is affecting

1097
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:55,560
is that all of those people hopefully will now will see each other as allies in this movement so not

1098
01:46:55,560 --> 01:47:01,000
just in the disability community but also among a bunch of other communities that are being affected

1099
01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:05,560
yes that was one of the disturbing things that happened in the US is that there was such a huge

1100
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:11,960
outpouring of interest in police reform after the George Floyd protests and the breathe act was one

1101
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:17,880
it wasn't far enough it wasn't certainly a solution but that even hasn't been supportive that

1102
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:24,520
didn't get the political support from the liberals or the or the Republicans the political equation

1103
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:30,520
is much more theater and opportunism it seems like when it's on when it's in the headlines it becomes

1104
01:47:30,520 --> 01:47:35,880
something that politicians are willing to posture around but actually the power isn't there to make

1105
01:47:35,880 --> 01:47:41,640
these real reforms happen when it comes down to it so that's really disappointing and I think a

1106
01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:47,880
lot of people right now in the wake of the Black Lives Matter protests are sort of asking ourselves

1107
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:55,320
well what do we need to do because we had this huge global uprising really and if even that doesn't

1108
01:47:55,320 --> 01:48:00,120
get through then something is really wrong with our democracy and something very fundamental

1109
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:05,000
has to be looked at for the kinds of changes that are actually going to be needed to happen

1110
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:13,000
yeah like I say hopeful in the sense that I'm hopeful that more ordinary people are becoming aware

1111
01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:18,680
of the need for change in the sphere because that even wasn't the case 10 years ago with people who

1112
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:24,920
were victims of psychiatric incarceration they weren't even included in these discussions now they're

1113
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:31,560
included at least and that discussion overall is becoming more common in our society but yeah

1114
01:48:31,560 --> 01:48:36,600
absolutely we're not seeing the kind of we're not seeing it get the kind of traction we would hope to

1115
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:42,840
get at the at the level of actual government action and that's still a ways away apparently and

1116
01:48:42,840 --> 01:48:49,000
it's really unfortunate but you see that very visibly because even in these cases I talked about

1117
01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:56,600
earlier blatant fraud that were outed in the newspapers of psychiatric incarceration that was blatant

1118
01:48:56,600 --> 01:49:04,440
fraud governments would hem and ha and well you know because well these people really are mentally ill

1119
01:49:04,440 --> 01:49:09,560
you know can we really trust them and it was only when like the medical director of the facility

1120
01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:14,440
literally said yeah this is what we're doing we're you know like whistleblowers from within

1121
01:49:14,440 --> 01:49:20,040
the government finally took action right well there's cases of that were the news media coverage for two

1122
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:26,840
years was brutal but the place kept its licensing and so that goes to entrenched government powers

1123
01:49:26,840 --> 01:49:32,760
that are reluctant to change and yeah that's a democratic issue yeah there's a real failure of

1124
01:49:32,760 --> 01:49:39,080
democracy we talk about this quite quite a bit and the problem of regulatory capture that the

1125
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:45,000
oversight agencies like the FDA for example like the Department of of justice like the different

1126
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:51,240
agencies at the state level are manipulated controlled corrupted dominated they serve the interests

1127
01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:57,000
of the very forces that they're supposed to be overseeing so that's a is a fundamental crisis

1128
01:49:57,000 --> 01:50:02,440
in democracy that I see the forced treatment issue is being very intertwined with that and I think

1129
01:50:02,440 --> 01:50:08,920
the solutions are going to come in on a broader and more fundamental basis I think is there

1130
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:15,000
is there a country or an example of a place in the world that really has taken the right space

1131
01:50:15,000 --> 01:50:21,480
perspective to heart and it has backed off from forced to force treatment and it's creating something

1132
01:50:21,480 --> 01:50:29,080
different not that I'm aware of yet at the scale that you're asking so certainly the world health

1133
01:50:29,080 --> 01:50:34,760
organization is highlighted these pockets of examples around the world and I encourage people to

1134
01:50:34,760 --> 01:50:39,880
look at those because yeah when we talk about alternatives they're working within the models of

1135
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:45,240
the existing systems and just looking at reform right it's saying okay what could we do differently

1136
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:50,200
at a psychiatric hospital even so they're not talking about full-on abolishment of the entire

1137
01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:54,840
mental health system at all right they're not going that far they're talking about just adjustments

1138
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:59,240
and but they are pretty revolutionary in the sense that they're right space they're truly saying

1139
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:05,320
how can we do this in a way that respects the wishes of these individuals that said when I found out

1140
01:51:05,320 --> 01:51:10,040
during the course of my research and this is really new news I'm not even sure that they've issued

1141
01:51:10,040 --> 01:51:17,880
the report yet but the European Union of trying to translate it from the languages it's usually

1142
01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:23,160
written in but the European Union of medical society so the oversight body for all the medical

1143
01:51:23,160 --> 01:51:28,600
societies of Europe you know very big organizations 1.5 million members and whatnot and they have a

1144
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:35,080
psychiatry division the union itself with a new president in charge issued a statement to me saying

1145
01:51:35,080 --> 01:51:42,440
we are going to issue a report on best practices in voluntary care in mental health so they have

1146
01:51:42,440 --> 01:51:49,560
abandoned entirely the voluntary in voluntary treatment so that's major so if that does come out

1147
01:51:49,560 --> 01:51:55,320
and I don't know if it has yet I haven't seen it but when it does that'll be another document

1148
01:51:55,320 --> 01:52:02,200
that's pretty significant like the CRPD and that will allow people to use it as leverage to say okay

1149
01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:07,080
countries really got to start changing so you're saying that they backed off the idea of let's just

1150
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:11,960
to five force treatment and then just said look there isn't any justification for this let's just go

1151
01:52:11,960 --> 01:52:17,880
with replacing it with voluntary treatment and that this happened on a European wide medical

1152
01:52:17,880 --> 01:52:22,680
organization that's for representing all these different countries essentially yes yeah and so I'm

1153
01:52:22,680 --> 01:52:27,480
hopeful that it sounds like they're going to be in line with the World Health Organization is done

1154
01:52:27,480 --> 01:52:33,640
so this is that's something right these are pretty significant organizations and groups that at

1155
01:52:33,640 --> 01:52:41,000
least makes for a good story and hopefully you know you can use that because I use it right when I

1156
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:47,320
talk now I think it does carry weight in legislators minds and in the general public's mind and so I do

1157
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:53,640
think as a symbol if nothing else it might help us move ahead so Rob we're just about out of time

1158
01:52:53,640 --> 01:52:59,400
on madness radio so just remind people the the name of your new book and also how they can get

1159
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:04,920
in touch with you if they want to get in touch with you so the book is called your consent is not

1160
01:53:04,920 --> 01:53:12,280
required the rise in psychiatric detentions force treatment and abusive guardianships and anybody

1161
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:18,600
can reach me through my website which is just my name dot com so rob wipe on dot com and of contact

1162
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:23,800
information there and the books available basically everywhere I mean I encourage people to support

1163
01:53:23,800 --> 01:53:28,680
your local bookstore and it also makes the bookstore aware that my book exists if you order it

1164
01:53:28,680 --> 01:53:33,800
through your local independent bookstore but of course it's available online and I encourage

1165
01:53:33,800 --> 01:53:41,080
people also to ask your local library to order the book yes I I can't say how grateful I am for

1166
01:53:41,080 --> 01:53:46,120
you on madness radio today and also for your work this is a tremendous tremendous accomplishment

1167
01:53:46,120 --> 01:53:50,680
your book is extremely vital reading and just congratulations and thank you for the work that

1168
01:53:50,680 --> 01:53:56,520
you've done Rob and thank you it's a great conversation today I really appreciate it and for

1169
01:53:56,520 --> 01:54:02,360
for madness radio it's been a great contribution in this space for people to learn and discuss these

1170
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:09,320
issues you've been listening to an interview with Rob wipe on Rob is a freelance investigative journalist

1171
01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:15,240
who writes frequently at the interfaces between psychiatry civil rights policing surveillance and

1172
01:54:15,240 --> 01:54:21,640
privacy and social change his articles have been nominated for 17 magazine and journalism awards

1173
01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:28,040
for writing in medicine science and technology business and law he has taught journalism and creative

1174
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:34,440
nonfiction at the University of Victoria and Royal Roads University and also works and volunteers

1175
01:54:34,440 --> 01:54:39,880
with nonprofit groups who do neighborhood community building that's all the time we have on madness

1176
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:43,080
radio thanks for tuning in

1177
01:54:43,080 --> 01:54:58,280
what does it mean to be called crazy in a crazy world listen to madness radio voices and visions

1178
01:54:58,280 --> 01:55:15,640
from outside mental health yes I will I will so we treat it like a live interview

1179
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:23,480
but I will I will edit it I will take out some ums and a's and that kind of thing great anything that

1180
01:55:23,480 --> 01:55:30,360
if at the end of our time together if you are thinking oh will I like I mentioned a source's name

1181
01:55:30,360 --> 01:55:36,120
where I mentioned yeah I want to remove that that's fine if in the course of our conversation

1182
01:55:36,120 --> 01:55:42,600
I will do this all the time I'll say hi welcome to marra wrap well you know I'll just like

1183
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:48,760
club my my delivery and so I will rerecord it you're welcome to do that you're welcome to say

1184
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:57,400
yeah yeah yeah there are you know especially when I'm really comfortable like with you as I am

1185
01:55:57,400 --> 01:56:01,880
unliable to just start saying anything and forget wait a minute this is going to go out public

1186
01:56:01,880 --> 01:56:07,320
so sometimes that's literally and I'm stopping myself mid-sentence go okay wait I don't think I

1187
01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:12,440
actually had authorization to disclose this part publicly or whatever I should randomly

1188
01:56:12,440 --> 01:56:17,320
going on about an old roommate of mine you know the other day and I realized oh guys I haven't

1189
01:56:17,320 --> 01:56:22,120
talked to that guy in 10 years I don't know that he wants to be relating his story publicly it's

1190
01:56:22,120 --> 01:56:27,000
so I was like let me redo that totally well that especially that that kind of thing is really

1191
01:56:27,000 --> 01:56:32,440
super important and it's maybe less as less important for you because you're a journalist but

1192
01:56:32,440 --> 01:56:38,600
especially when I work with survivors I give them the control over if they want to take down the

1193
01:56:38,600 --> 01:56:45,400
interview I will take it down understanding that the internet feeds off of everything um and also

1194
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:50,920
like if there's a if there's a post post broadcast edit that needs to happen that has happened a

1195
01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:55,720
couple times someone changes their mind or someone some information they get some feedback someone

1196
01:56:55,720 --> 01:57:00,840
hears it and says oh you shouldn't know I'm also totally I want you to feel really solid

1197
01:57:00,840 --> 01:57:06,840
the interview so you can stand behind it 100% yeah thank you it's out there and I actually think

1198
01:57:06,840 --> 01:57:13,160
that's worth you know like I think that's an important part of working in this space that we're in

1199
01:57:13,160 --> 01:57:17,000
you know I've fought a lot about it and I kind of want to write about it actually at some point too

1200
01:57:17,000 --> 01:57:26,120
how journalism can be done in this space how it needs to be done you know and I mean I think of you

1201
01:57:26,120 --> 01:57:33,800
as also a journalist you know with this podcast right and yeah I think we need and this did you read

1202
01:57:33,800 --> 01:57:41,960
Linda Andre's book Doctors of Deception yeah oh yeah that's quite a book in my opinion it was one

1203
01:57:41,960 --> 01:57:47,960
of the best like attacks critiques really it was a I wouldn't say attack because that doesn't do

1204
01:57:47,960 --> 01:57:55,080
it justice it was a very well thought through critique of how journalists cover these issues you know

1205
01:57:55,080 --> 01:58:00,200
I thought she was dead on the money she was kind of doing an analysis of like here's what the journalist

1206
01:58:00,200 --> 01:58:05,880
tells me when they say oh yeah yeah I just want to hear your point of view I just want to share I'm

1207
01:58:05,880 --> 01:58:12,680
trying to learn and then she'd discover that no they didn't you know they had this agenda and all

1208
01:58:12,680 --> 01:58:18,840
of that you know and I started thinking about these issues really early on in my career actually

1209
01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:23,080
from the other direction because I kind of felt bad that I would interview a psychiatrist for two

1210
01:58:23,080 --> 01:58:27,640
hours and then rake him over the coals right and I thought you know he gave me of his time like as a

1211
01:58:27,640 --> 01:58:32,920
person yeah I felt you know maybe it was a public employee so I didn't feel bad about it but you

1212
01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:37,080
know there was a level at which I thought about that and so I just started to be much more upfront

1213
01:58:37,080 --> 01:58:41,640
like kind of going look this is kind of where I'm coming from so and actually started to get better

1214
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:47,240
answers to like not pretending at all that you know I was completely neutral on this I said I got a

1215
01:58:47,240 --> 01:58:52,040
lot of concerns about civil rights and the mental health system this is what I'm writing about you

1216
01:58:52,040 --> 01:58:57,640
know and and and and so then I'd feel better and I'd often get a better rapport going actually

1217
01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:04,920
but then wow yeah the world opened up to me when I when I really started to talk and understand more

1218
01:59:04,920 --> 01:59:10,440
what survivors are actually going through and how hard it can be for them and how badly the media

1219
01:59:10,440 --> 01:59:16,360
has treated them you know I'm thinking I'm thinking a lot about you're raising a broader issue about

1220
01:59:16,360 --> 01:59:23,960
the crisis in news media and journalism and the credibility and trust that has declined because

1221
01:59:23,960 --> 01:59:30,840
there is so much partisan you know posing as neutral and then like I bounce between CNN and Fox

1222
01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:38,520
and it's like it's incredible it's it's incredible and so there's that and there's also there's

1223
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:45,880
something I've been thinking about in my work with therapy clients pleatel that I work with in

1224
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:52,120
support groups people I've learned their intimate stories that there's this idea of the case history

1225
01:59:52,680 --> 01:59:57,560
right like this is a case example right and it's used in the literature law and there is a kind of a

1226
01:59:57,560 --> 02:00:03,080
critique of that that it's basically a literary device that it's a way that's used to support

1227
02:00:03,080 --> 02:00:11,400
an agenda or a literary effect or an author's intention but it's posing as kind of like a neutral

1228
02:00:11,400 --> 02:00:19,080
evidence base so in my in my writing I've there's so much temptation to like write up someone's story

1229
02:00:19,080 --> 02:00:24,440
as a case example that illustrates x, y and z and you have to do that to some degree but I think a lot

1230
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:31,400
of the same issues are being brought up in that because I'm it's a selective use of the certain kind

1231
02:00:31,400 --> 02:00:37,640
of evidence and it's posing in a certain kind of way and I there's people say well the permission

1232
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:42,040
like once you have permission from the person well yeah it's but it's in print media they how do they

1233
02:00:42,040 --> 02:00:47,320
retract their permission and then also I've I've worked with journalists and I've given permission

1234
02:00:47,320 --> 02:00:52,440
and I want to read in the print I'm like what the fuck and their their ass is covered because they

1235
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:59,160
got my permission and so anyway it's a complicated thing I'm glad you raise it I mean I think we could

1236
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:04,280
like I think I I mentioned on the email you and I could do like four hours on this we could just do a

1237
02:01:04,280 --> 02:01:09,800
show on journalism and mental health that would be very fascinating actually you're right yeah maybe

1238
02:01:09,800 --> 02:01:15,400
you should maybe we should I'm happy to I'm happy to think about follow up that's one of the things

1239
02:01:15,400 --> 02:01:21,800
that will free us in this conversation is if we remind ourselves okay we can do a part two you know

1240
02:01:21,800 --> 02:01:28,600
part three or a different topic or whatever so so let's um but let's uh I want to promo your book

1241
02:01:28,600 --> 02:01:34,680
that's my number one goal with this interview the second goal is to convey what's in the book the

1242
02:01:34,680 --> 02:01:41,160
most powerful stuff that's in the book and then the third thing is to explore kind of my thoughts

1243
02:01:41,160 --> 02:01:50,840
and responses and reactions and so um the first debate of which is I couldn't read it dude I can't read

1244
02:01:50,840 --> 02:01:56,280
this because I get so triggered I get so and I the word triggered is overused now it used to be like

1245
02:01:56,280 --> 02:02:01,560
five years ago it maybe had more meaning as a word but it gets really overused now but I was very

1246
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:07,160
triggered not by the book I'm triggered by the content the topic the realm it's like it's a room

1247
02:02:07,160 --> 02:02:14,040
in my psyche that I only step into very cautiously and I think you you handle it wonderfully there's

1248
02:02:14,040 --> 02:02:20,120
absolutely nothing that I have it's just the topic is very very difficult unfortunately it puts me

1249
02:02:20,120 --> 02:02:25,320
at a bit of a disadvantage because I I had blocked off in my mind the last two weeks that's why I asked

1250
02:02:25,320 --> 02:02:31,720
you for the print copy because I have my my pencils and I have my I'm like ready to devour this thing

1251
02:02:31,720 --> 02:02:37,400
I mean I'm reading like Jung's red book right now and I'm got I just like I just go out of control when

1252
02:02:37,400 --> 02:02:44,440
I'm reading I just write stuff all over it I stop reading it you know so um so that's put me puts

1253
02:02:44,440 --> 02:02:50,360
me in a bit of a disadvantage in this interview but your journalist you've done these interviews you

1254
02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:55,640
know what that's in the book so I'm basically what I'm saying is that um uh I'm going to be leaning a

1255
02:02:55,640 --> 02:03:01,240
bit on you to kind of take us to the most compelling the most things that you want to get

1256
02:03:01,240 --> 02:03:07,000
across and I do apologize I apologize and I don't apologize because it's just the reality of being a

1257
02:03:07,000 --> 02:03:15,240
survivor journalist is that um because I started reading it and I was like I didn't I didn't quite

1258
02:03:15,240 --> 02:03:21,000
catch on to myself that I was getting so triggered until I like oh okay and then I talk to a friend

1259
02:03:21,000 --> 02:03:26,360
and I you know and I because I I felt like oh I'm failing you know all that stuff the self blame

1260
02:03:26,360 --> 02:03:30,440
comes in like why don't I try harder and why didn't I time manage better and I should have had a

1261
02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:36,600
better dinner that's why I can't focus on this book I'm like wait a second my heart is racing right

1262
02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:42,040
now I'm having you know all the symptoms so symptoms not being a word that I like but anyway but I

1263
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:46,280
just wanted to convey that to you so in a sense I want to apologize to you because I would like to be

1264
02:03:46,280 --> 02:03:52,680
more familiar with the book than I am but I thought well I could postpone the interview and do it

1265
02:03:52,680 --> 02:03:57,320
after I've read it but then I prefer I said instead I'm just gonna write Rob and tell him this is

1266
02:03:57,320 --> 02:04:01,880
what out what's up I'm gonna tell you that actually don't tell anybody but I haven't fucking read and

1267
02:04:01,880 --> 02:04:06,920
had to be up in the epidemic cover to cover I haven't read a cover to cover I mean I'm doing my

1268
02:04:06,920 --> 02:04:12,600
dissertation on this topic I have not read that book cover to cover I mean well I I don't know

1269
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:18,200
that you need to right I mean it's a little bit like you know with anything really dark and

1270
02:04:18,200 --> 02:04:23,400
difficult no this you know this this is no no this is gonna teach me a lot there's a lot in here

1271
02:04:23,400 --> 02:04:28,680
that I don't know there's a lot in here that I want to learn from and a lot of details even like the

1272
02:04:28,680 --> 02:04:35,160
the the document that you sent about surprising revelations that was oh I opening part of it's

1273
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:39,960
because I've been avoiding some of the latest stuff about I don't I'm not one of the kind of people

1274
02:04:39,960 --> 02:04:45,560
who reads Madden America obsessively for every single thing that comes out about forced treatments

1275
02:04:45,560 --> 02:04:49,320
well I should you go ahead yeah I was just gonna say I mean I still think there's a try I do think

1276
02:04:49,320 --> 02:04:55,000
there's a lot there's a lot in this book that surprised me when I discovered it even though I've

1277
02:04:55,000 --> 02:05:01,960
been researching these issues for 20 years right so so yeah I thought gosh if this is surprising me

1278
02:05:01,960 --> 02:05:08,280
then I'm guessing it's gonna surprise others who who are very familiar with some of this general

1279
02:05:08,280 --> 02:05:13,800
territory like yourself so yeah I do think there are lots of things that even people who are very

1280
02:05:13,800 --> 02:05:24,200
knowledgeable can can learn but at the same time there's when we talk about that kind of darkness right

1281
02:05:24,200 --> 02:05:29,160
delving into it over and over like what it you know really I come back to what's the essential

1282
02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:34,200
what what do you really need to know or what do you really need to learn right and then at a certain

1283
02:05:34,200 --> 02:05:38,520
point that I think there are certain people that do benefit from just getting more and more

1284
02:05:38,520 --> 02:05:43,800
information you know and all that and for other people they just don't it's like they got they got it

1285
02:05:43,800 --> 02:05:49,160
you know learning in the end is not about information right it's like I think there are a lot of

1286
02:05:49,160 --> 02:05:53,640
people that they who never know anything about the mental health system and they have a very intuitive

1287
02:05:53,640 --> 02:05:58,920
natural way of understanding what it means to respect others respect others rights respect

1288
02:05:58,920 --> 02:06:04,280
difference and and they would never support forced treatment you know even if they hadn't even heard

1289
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:09,080
of it and when they hear of it they go well that's terrible that shouldn't happen to anyone you know

1290
02:06:09,080 --> 02:06:13,640
so there are people like that do they need to read my book probably not might they get something from

1291
02:06:13,640 --> 02:06:18,440
it sure but you know what I mean like I don't think they need to yeah well there's a lot I'm probably

1292
02:06:18,440 --> 02:06:23,880
this is a because Bob when I interviewed Bob he will say well you know and I think this is true

1293
02:06:23,880 --> 02:06:29,880
you know I have a role to play as a journalist I can't really be the advocate you know if I go to

1294
02:06:29,880 --> 02:06:35,640
too many protests if I if I come out too strongly but I'm gonna find I guess I'll find out where you're

1295
02:06:35,640 --> 02:06:40,440
where you're at I mean is are you did you come out of a Reese I mean maybe you went into this book

1296
02:06:40,440 --> 02:06:46,280
as an abolitionist or anti-forced treatment I mean or maybe it's more like your role is different

1297
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:52,360
than that but we can we can talk about that I'm curious what you think about that coming out of it

1298
02:06:52,360 --> 02:06:58,680
also also if I ask you a question don't feel like it's a gotcha I can totally backtrack and like

1299
02:06:58,680 --> 02:07:05,800
you don't want to go there or whatever everything like that so let's so let's let's just get rolling

1300
02:07:05,800 --> 02:07:13,720
because yeah this is um damn oh okay so also I think it would be great if you if we start off

1301
02:07:13,720 --> 02:07:19,800
we're gonna I'm gonna introduce you and I want to get a bio from you and I'm gonna we're gonna chat

1302
02:07:19,800 --> 02:07:24,600
a little bit and maybe we'll pick up we'll repeat some of the things I think it's probably

1303
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:28,920
significant for the listeners to hear that I don't know I don't think I'm gonna say I haven't read the

1304
02:07:28,920 --> 02:07:34,440
book I'll just say it was very difficult because I read quite a bit of it um I don't know how deep I

1305
02:07:34,440 --> 02:07:40,840
want to go into that but I also that is an introduction to like I am um thinking about because my job

1306
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:47,160
as an interviewer is to present is to help you shine to listen and respond but also represent the

1307
02:07:47,160 --> 02:07:53,000
listeners like I need to so someone like if you say if you start out by using the phrase force

1308
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:57,160
treatment I might say well can you explain what what that is what is it we're talking I know what

1309
02:07:57,160 --> 02:08:04,200
it means but the reader listeners may not um so I'll probably start out um with some like just

1310
02:08:04,200 --> 02:08:08,040
chitchat a little bit you and me and then I'll say well how should we get started maybe we could

1311
02:08:08,040 --> 02:08:14,520
want to read that chapter the for the preface I guess about your own family experience um I think

1312
02:08:14,520 --> 02:08:19,960
it's too long will I think that I'll be I'll be mentally drained if I if I really do it too since

1313
02:08:19,960 --> 02:08:24,280
I'm only known for the same reason you talk about you know so I could read like small or little

1314
02:08:24,280 --> 02:08:29,080
sections it's like oh let's here's a topic I'd like to talk about you know what about this section but

1315
02:08:29,080 --> 02:08:35,320
I think if I read I mean maybe we could set that up for a different day where I just sort of flat

1316
02:08:35,320 --> 02:08:41,080
you know read it and we record it you know if you really think it'll fit well and all of that and

1317
02:08:41,080 --> 02:08:45,960
people have the patience I'm willing to give it a try but I think if we did it now like by the end

1318
02:08:45,960 --> 02:08:52,600
of it I'd be like okay well I'm done you know I've just revisited my dad and uh you know so we're both

1319
02:08:52,600 --> 02:08:58,600
we're both in the emotional you two are doing well particularly that story right there's really and

1320
02:08:58,600 --> 02:09:04,280
and then a lot of them yeah I don't think I could have the same problem I guess I I'm just you

1321
02:09:04,280 --> 02:09:10,120
know I also don't know if it pulls up a lot for me I used to be a performer right so so kind of

1322
02:09:10,120 --> 02:09:14,840
brings in am I going to be you know how how how am I going to read this what level of energy I

1323
02:09:14,840 --> 02:09:21,000
going to bring to it and to be honest I just listened to Jonathan Todd Ross who did the audio

1324
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:25,400
version of my book it just came out yesterday and I got my little you know complimentary copy

1325
02:09:25,400 --> 02:09:33,480
and I was blown away it's great it's so good I listen I just sat there for an hour listening to him

1326
02:09:33,480 --> 02:09:39,080
read the first couple chapters and I'm thrilled and I'm too drunk could we drop that in can we

1327
02:09:39,080 --> 02:09:46,840
drop the preface in yeah I'm sure that we could probably get that somehow we might we'd have to talk

1328
02:09:46,840 --> 02:09:51,320
to the people at audible about it as a rights issue but if we just promote it as this is available

1329
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:57,560
on audible.com and all that like I'm sure they would appreciate the promo so yeah that's possible

1330
02:09:57,560 --> 02:10:03,400
because he does a nice job exactly like you know any kind of even a way lifted it up artistically

1331
02:10:03,400 --> 02:10:07,880
and where I went I'm glad I didn't do it because I considered auditioning because I used to you

1332
02:10:07,880 --> 02:10:13,880
know perform and all that and I thought it'd be cool and someday I might but man yeah I just thought

1333
02:10:13,880 --> 02:10:20,440
okay audible book is a whole art form and he's doing a terrific terrific job wow okay okay so I'm

1334
02:10:20,440 --> 02:10:24,440
gonna okay well that was my thoughts so how do you think we should start then do you want to just

1335
02:10:24,440 --> 02:10:31,320
are there sections other sections well that's not a bad place to start as a topic right what you know

1336
02:10:31,320 --> 02:10:36,520
people lost interviews say yeah yeah just kind of talk a bit about my family's experience

1337
02:10:36,520 --> 02:10:41,320
and stuff yeah I don't mind talking I just like it's a long chapter I read the whole thing I think

1338
02:10:41,320 --> 02:10:47,640
I'd be kind of tired okay okay okay so we'll start and I'll just say maybe I'll just say that

1339
02:10:47,640 --> 02:10:51,800
there's this it starts out with this introduction that's incredibly and I think it's also

1340
02:10:51,800 --> 02:10:57,080
going to help the listeners because it'll it'll locate you as an engaged journalist or as

1341
02:10:57,080 --> 02:11:04,760
as someone whose heart is in this which I imagine is a big motivation for writing the book and

1342
02:11:04,760 --> 02:11:09,480
you're interested in this topic and and I want to also want to make sure that we cover not just the

1343
02:11:09,480 --> 02:11:17,000
book we give enough context on your 20 years of involvement in this issue 10 years 20 years 10 years

1344
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:22,520
10 years 20 25 25 wow because you were around before I was around I think I heard about you in the

1345
02:11:22,520 --> 02:11:28,280
very early early early days oh yeah yeah I think I heard about you yeah I think when I first started

1346
02:11:28,280 --> 02:11:35,160
yeah freedom center stuff okay so how should I do the bio and is it I'm sorry is it

1347
02:11:35,160 --> 02:11:39,000
Y pond or we pond Y pond Y pond yeah

1348
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:50,440
so I should say Rob Y pond Rob Y pond is a journalist based in what you know I say investigative

1349
02:11:50,440 --> 02:11:58,200
journalist I'm trying to avoid the baston because Americans don't like Canadians you know

1350
02:11:58,200 --> 02:12:02,360
kind of thing they don't trust us yeah just say Rob Webman's investigative journalist who's

1351
02:12:02,360 --> 02:12:07,880
written for both you know Canadian and American publications you know what I mean do you want to

1352
02:12:07,880 --> 02:12:13,000
do you want to do some examples of prominent publications you written for that we can drop into

1353
02:12:13,000 --> 02:12:18,120
bio here what I kind of say yeah you know the bio at the back of the book is sort of the one that I

1354
02:12:18,120 --> 02:12:23,960
synthesized down to the the best possible way for the audience I thought you can just read that

1355
02:12:23,960 --> 02:12:28,680
sure yeah that's what I would do and you can stop if you want before you get to the journalism not

1356
02:12:28,680 --> 02:12:33,880
creative nonfiction stuff and that if you want just stop at the journalism part but I added a few

1357
02:12:33,880 --> 02:12:38,440
other things for people know that I do work it it might be relevant to your activism question

1358
02:12:38,440 --> 02:12:42,760
because I talk about that I volunteer and work in community building and stuff right

1359
02:12:42,760 --> 02:12:47,800
to hang on I think I lost you here so so I'll read the bio and it says he has taught journalism

1360
02:12:47,800 --> 02:12:52,280
and creative nonfiction when we just stop there well you can if you want on the other hand if you

1361
02:12:52,280 --> 02:12:58,040
continue you'll see what it says over those two pair you know next two sentences is it highlights

1362
02:12:58,040 --> 02:13:03,240
my community work and that's sort of relevant to the future question about my activism if you're

1363
02:13:03,240 --> 02:13:08,600
going to ask it because that kind of connects up to how I think about mental health and force

1364
02:13:08,600 --> 02:13:14,760
treatment in in community and that I'm very interested in community building and you know and

1365
02:13:14,760 --> 02:13:19,400
that's an active thing that I work on if I have actually so they kind of intersect right and that's

1366
02:13:19,400 --> 02:13:25,000
why included it in my bio I consider it relevant to my notion of what are alternatives what are

1367
02:13:25,000 --> 02:13:30,360
solutions you know we got it we got to definitely do is follow up interview if not to because they're

1368
02:13:30,360 --> 02:13:35,160
this a very rich thing that you oh that's a whole territory in itself I don't know if you saw my

1369
02:13:35,160 --> 02:13:40,920
maddened miracle article about that some years ago so I wrote an article about this burgeoning

1370
02:13:40,920 --> 02:13:46,600
place where the mental health system is getting involved in community based organizations okay but

1371
02:13:46,600 --> 02:13:51,240
hang on hang on let's do the Alice let's put it in the interview let's get it okay sure yeah yeah

1372
02:13:51,240 --> 02:13:55,560
so let's just get rolling and then let's do that because that's great and I think we also we have

1373
02:13:55,560 --> 02:14:01,480
enough of a rapport that we can just keep going with it so I want to just do a couple of quick tests

1374
02:14:01,480 --> 02:14:07,160
so where is your is your microphone on on this or is it on where's your microphone it's right here

1375
02:14:07,160 --> 02:14:12,040
okay so can you just just just give me just count to 10 and then adjust it is it in the

1376
02:14:12,040 --> 02:14:18,840
okay place or yeah I've got it down right now so it's down more to my chin so one two three four five

1377
02:14:18,840 --> 02:14:23,400
sounds fine is it do you think it's in the best place or is it oh yeah like I used to put it up

1378
02:14:23,400 --> 02:14:28,760
here but I think it's more likely to get air popping when I'm getting animated so if you think the

1379
02:14:28,760 --> 02:14:36,120
well yeah it's fine so I just want to just check one thing on my uh preferences here um

1380
02:14:37,160 --> 02:14:43,640
recording uh because there's one that says record a separate audio file for each participant okay

1381
02:14:43,640 --> 02:14:49,800
that's great okay um all right and you're able to hear me okay yep great and I'm just gonna just

1382
02:14:49,800 --> 02:14:57,320
make sure that this is the mic you hear that little bit not too loud okay but you definitely hear

1383
02:14:57,320 --> 02:15:02,440
this really loud yeah that's louder you don't hear this at all right I do I do you know that

1384
02:15:02,440 --> 02:15:06,520
there's definitely louder yeah yeah yeah definitely louder when you're moving for it just checking the

1385
02:15:06,520 --> 02:15:20,040
checking the this the right mic okay okay here we go um uh yeah um now I now I transform into a talk

1386
02:15:20,040 --> 02:15:28,840
show host all right radio talk show welcome um wipe on okay um oh and then I'm gonna have to add to

1387
02:15:28,840 --> 02:15:35,320
your bio uh he's the author of your consent is not required psych okay I need to say the name of the

1388
02:15:35,320 --> 02:15:41,080
book and the bio so if you can say the whole name it's great too like yeah second part yeah definitely

1389
02:15:41,080 --> 02:15:52,760
your consent is not required okay