1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 [Music] 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,240 What does it mean to be called "crazy" in a crazy world? 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,480 Listen to Madness Radio, voices and visions from outside mental health, 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,440 sponsored by peer-run support communities Freedom Center, 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,160 the Icarus Project, and Portland Hearing Voices. 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,080 Madness Radio can be heard on FM stations on the Pacifica Radio Network 7 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:26,320 and is online at kbou.fm/madnessradio. 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,320 [Music] 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,200 Thanks for joining us today on Madness Radio, I'm your host Will Hall. 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,440 Today my guest is Francois Demange. 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,800 He's a practitioner of traditional Amazonian medicine and has a background in anthropology. 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,360 And for 17 years he studied with the indigenous people of the Provean Amazon 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,720 using plant spirit medicine, including ayahuasca. 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:56,160 And we're going to be speaking with Francois today about Amazonian Indigenous healing and mental health. 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,160 So welcome to Madness Radio, Francois Demange. 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:01,160 Hello. 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:07,360 Yeah, it's great to have you here because I think one of the things that a lot of Madness Radio listeners are interested in 18 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:13,120 is exploring the ways that different cultures approach what are called mental health problems, 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:14,880 which we're going to be also exploring. 20 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,320 They're also spiritual problems from the perspective of different cultures. 21 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:22,160 And you have a very interesting background working with ayahuasca 22 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,120 and indigenous healing in the Amazon. 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:31,360 Ayahuasca is a powerful psychedelic medicine that's used to bring people into visionary states. 24 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,720 And we're going to be talking about that and how that can help people who are having mental health problems. 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,120 And maybe you should tell us just a little bit about personally, 26 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:40,560 how did you get interested in this? 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,320 You have a background in anthropology, is that right? 28 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:47,600 Yeah, and it's a very interesting history. 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:58,000 I mean, I was actually in my 20s working in a business marketing enterprise in France. 30 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,240 And I was looking for spiritual exposure and spiritual research. 31 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,400 And I couldn't really find it in the environment I grow. 32 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:11,040 So after some research and some traveling, 33 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:17,200 I am an exposure to different ceremonies with Native American people. 34 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:23,440 I heard about ayahuasca and I heard about a French medical doctor doing research on addiction. 35 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:29,120 And as a use of traditional medicine in the proven Amazon. 36 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:37,200 So I decided to go there and had a very strong experience that made me feel at home and really, 37 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,520 made me feel that I found what I was looking for. 38 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:45,280 And I decided to settle myself in this little town of Tarapoto 39 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:50,400 in the higher Amazon jungle just after the end is. 40 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,080 And I stayed there and lived there for 10 years, 41 00:02:54,080 --> 00:03:01,680 get exposed with different indigenous people and different communities and learn that tradition. 42 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,280 So you came out of the business world and you were a spiritual seeker. 43 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,000 There was something spiritual that was missing and you couldn't find it. 44 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000 And then you found it in the Amazon with ayahuasca. 45 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,520 What is it that you discovered in that that was so spiritually compelling? 46 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:22,880 Well, I really wanted to connect in a certain way with nature and the understanding of our perception of nature 47 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:30,080 and all that mythology in a way of the spirit of nature and that communication with the spirit world. 48 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:36,880 In the context of the Amazon, the Amazon man always lived very close to nature 49 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:42,960 and had a very strong interaction with forest and the knowledge of the forest and the medicine of the forest. 50 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:50,720 So the myth and the knowledge of those people is still very much alive today 51 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,280 because they haven't been exposed so much to the development and industrial revolution. 52 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,040 So it is part of the world where you can still find those traditions very much alive. 53 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:04,000 And also they use this psychoactive plant called ayahuasca. 54 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:12,480 That is a boost in a way you senses and your awareness and your consciousness and open that understanding 55 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,400 of spirit and interaction with spirit. 56 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:25,440 When I experienced that and I was guided by those people, I found that what I was looking for 57 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:31,040 I was really happy to see it and be able to experience myself. 58 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:36,560 And I wanted to understand how that worked, how you can communicate and establish a connection, 59 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,800 a permanent connection with the spirit. That's what I was looking for. 60 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:47,840 And tell us what is ayahuasca becoming more popular in the US is becoming more known. 61 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:52,480 And so what is ayahuasca exactly and how is it used in the Amazon? 62 00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:04,240 Well ayahuasca is actually a vine from the family of the Banisteriopsis Kapi and it's a psychoactive 63 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:11,440 and it's been used for centuries by indigenous people of all the Amazonian basin from Ecuador 64 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,920 to Brazil, Peru and Colombia. 65 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:25,920 And they prepare a tea from that vine, mixing the vine with another plant, a shrub called Chacrona 66 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:35,120 or cicotera Viridis. And the combination of the two plants makes that brew that people ingest 67 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:42,400 and it has the properties of psychoactive soil. It produces some visions and it's like a journey 68 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:50,080 that activates the vision in the body. It contains a substance called DMT. 69 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:59,440 And what's very interesting about it is that the combination of the two plants has a particular 70 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,280 chemistry that interacts with our body. If you would ingest DMT already, 71 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:12,320 you wouldn't have any effect. But because of the properties of the alcaloids into the ayahuasca 72 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:20,320 it deactivates the enzymes that we have in our bodies that allow the activation of the DMT 73 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:29,360 and facilitates the vision. So these two plants are taken together and it's also not really known how 74 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:35,680 the people who use the plants together knew how to combine them. Is that right? Or they have 75 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:41,360 their own beliefs about how they knew to combine these two plants. If you look at the possibility for 76 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:47,040 indigenous people with all the options they have of the Amazon plants in the jungle which is 77 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:53,600 infinite to find that perfect combination that permits that chemistry to interact with our body 78 00:06:53,600 --> 00:07:00,720 it's almost impossible. So it opens all imagination to the fact that indigenous people have been 79 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:06,720 so connected with nature that they receive directly information from spirits to know how to use 80 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:13,440 plants and how to prepare remedies. And it is believed that this is how ayahuasca in a way was found. 81 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:20,880 It was it's an information that was received directly from nature to the Amazonian man. 82 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:26,000 How is it used? How are these ceremonies and rituals around the ayahuasca use and tell us a little 83 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,840 bit about the the healing traditions in general because they also use other plants and other methods 84 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:39,440 not just ayahuasca. Well ayahuasca is part of a medicinal system you know that we call vegetalism. 85 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:47,280 Amazonian people believe that certain plants have medicinal properties but certain plants they call 86 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:53,600 them plant master or master plant or plant teachers because they believe those plants have a spirit. 87 00:07:53,600 --> 00:08:00,240 You can establish a connection with that spirit taking those plants those herbs those roots 88 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,440 that are non-psychoactive they just medicinal but you need for that to keep a very strong 89 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:13,920 diet with lots of restrictions. So your body gets purer and open and you receive information 90 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:19,920 directly from that plant and you can heal yourself you can discover yourself and you have access 91 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:26,240 to information. And ayahuasca is one of them also but it is a psychoactive that means that 92 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:33,440 it takes you to that to that journey. It is it is a system in a way of a language in all 93 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:41,120 Suspense connect together and in the journey of ayahuasca when the practitioner has become more 94 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:48,480 aware of the existence and the knowledge of all the medicine. Use the ayahuasca to connect 95 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:56,320 with the spirits of those other plants and then in a ceremony he would call them in singing and 96 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:02,480 calls us energy of this medicine to bring them into the ceremony circle and bring healing for the 97 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,360 people. Before we get into the ayahuasca experience itself what are some of the other plants that are 98 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:14,400 used and how are they helpful to people? Well you know most of the modern chemistry that we use in 99 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:20,160 or you know pharmacy comes from plants and lots of them come from the the Amazon so there is a 100 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:26,000 lot of different medicinal plants that are used in the forest. I know mostly the local names but 101 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:32,720 there is all different kind of medicine good for headache to fevers to back pain to 102 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:43,280 good for cancer or blood issues or intoxications or parasites. So it's like having a new life 103 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:48,960 pharmacy all around you that you can collect directly from nature and prepare remedies from it 104 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:55,440 but also it has a component of a spiritual connection. So you just don't connect 105 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,760 only connect with the medicinal properties but it's almost if you 106 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:07,200 establish a communication with the plant and ask for certain things to be given. There is a 107 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:14,960 component of intention that is the big difference I would say. And there are many different strands 108 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,920 of the traditions that use ayahuasca what are some of them and how are they different? 109 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:28,240 So yeah ayahuasca comes originally from the Amazon it always has been used as a vehicle to connect 110 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:34,480 to receive knowledge information and communicate with the spirit world. In the part of that war 111 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:42,160 concept of vegetalism which means communication with all the vegetables so the system of plant 112 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:47,200 spirit communication. It has been used in many different indigenous communities, 113 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:56,000 the shipivos, the carnivos, the ketua, Aguaduna, the schwa from Ecuador. They all have a deep knowledge 114 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:02,400 of the use of ayahuasca and they all have a certain way of using it. Mainly it is always used in 115 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:09,680 a medicinal healing ceremony but sometimes also just to communicate with spirits bring information 116 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:17,840 like a divinatory information about information about the future. What's interesting is ayahuasca 117 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:25,280 has evolved in its uses in the last century. Today it has been brought out of its original context 118 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:34,400 and even in Peru which is where it's from originally it is used by a mestizo mixed blood population 119 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:43,840 that also have included Christian iconography and symbolism into its uses by the influence of religion 120 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:51,600 and in Brazil and other South American countries new religions have emerged with the use of ayahuasca. 121 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:57,120 One of them is called the Santo Dime where ayahuasca was taken out of its original context by a 122 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:04,240 Brazilian man that was living in the jungle who had a powerful vision on a journey with the medicine. 123 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:12,960 Ayahuasca and brought it back into a urban context and created that church called the Santo Dime where 124 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:22,560 ayahuasca became the main sacrament to connect with spirit to connect with Christ in their church. 125 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:29,280 So today for example in North America our modern society has been exposed to this different 126 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:35,520 traditions. There is healing ceremonies using the traditional use of ayahuasca for spiritual 127 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:43,520 connection and helping people with the knowledge of the plant spirit and healing therapies and 128 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:51,200 there is a huge movement in the different churches that help people getting empowered through the 129 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:59,600 ayahuasca in a research of spirituality and some of people also just use it for its journey properties 130 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:05,600 to try to connect with consciousness or an awareness that inner-weil society is looking for. 131 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:12,000 And tell us about what these ceremonies are like. What sort of happens because I know that 132 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:18,000 in the research with other powerful psychoactive like mushrooms and LSD there's a real strong 133 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:24,560 realization that it's really the set and the setting, the context, the way that the experience is 134 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:29,760 constructed and the expectations of the people have going in and we're talking about something that is 135 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:36,640 very very deeply linked to religious traditions and ceremony and the specific kinds of rituals. 136 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,360 So what is it that happens in those rituals and then what is the actual experience like of 137 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:48,640 someone who's taking ayahuasca and then how is it used for healing? So I can only speak also from 138 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:56,320 my own personal experience which is very much oriented with the traditional use of ayahuasca. 139 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:04,160 I was influenced and trained under people, connebo and casual amista people where this tradition is 140 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:11,440 from. In that context ayahuasca is used for healing. It's normally ceremony takes part at night in a 141 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:18,720 circle in a traditional house, a big hut that we call Maloka, people come around in circle. The 142 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:25,360 leader of the ceremony, the ayahuasca invite some participants to drink or not but still to 143 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:31,520 participate in the ceremony. Traditionally the patient or the person who's going to receive the 144 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:37,680 healing don't necessarily need to drink to receive the benefit of the ceremony. The ceremony takes 145 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:46,000 place at night everyone drinks or not the medicine and then after an hour time the effects manifest in 146 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:55,760 the body with visions that comes with that hypersensation all the senses get amplified and the 147 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:05,440 vibration gets amplified and for the practitioner in that journey of amplification of its senses he 148 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:14,160 develops the faculty to visualize the pathology of the patients during the journey. So he uses ayahuasca 149 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:22,880 almost like an x-ray. It's almost like the journey is oriented with an intention to look at the patient 150 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:30,560 or other situation into the patient that's going to show up in these visions and give him information 151 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:38,560 about the root or the causes of the unbalance and try to rectify it through the use of singing 152 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:46,400 or after the ceremony with the diagnosis that will imply the take of different medicine that are 153 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:52,480 non-saccharative. So singing and music are really an important part of the ceremony is they're 154 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,600 drumming and singing and chanting and prayer that goes along with the taking of the medicine? 155 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:04,160 Yeah it's mainly singing and sometimes some rattling. Drumming is not so much part of the amazon 156 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:12,400 in tradition it's sometimes included in some singing but it's mostly singing with rattling a 157 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:20,480 lots of whistling also. And so what would be an example say someone has an addiction for example 158 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:27,520 and they come for a ceremony and the ceremony takes place and there's they see the healer sees what 159 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:33,360 would they see in this visionary state of taking ayahuasca and then how you said that the singing is used 160 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:40,640 as a way of of changing the person or rebalancing the person how does that go? I also want to mention 161 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,680 for the person for the participant who takes the medicine who decide to go on the journey 162 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:51,920 it's going to benefit from the power of the medicine of ayahuasca this is going to amplify 163 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:58,320 the senses and give him information by himself so it's going to go into that trance. Ayahuasca 164 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:06,560 has two main effects it has this effect of introspection so it reveals information that we've 165 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:12,560 been holding inside of self for addiction for example most of the time it's because people have 166 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:19,280 been exposed to your trauma or some things that hasn't been resolved and it's a way for them to have 167 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,520 access to that information in a way to resolve it so to then move forward into the life and bring 168 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:32,960 perspective to what is going on with the addiction and it has also that effect of external connection 169 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:40,320 and amplifying your senses and connection with nature and consciousness and universe. 170 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:47,200 When we live a life of disconnection with addiction for example slowly we get disconnected with 171 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:53,920 our social connection with our perception to the world and we short ourselves down and you know 172 00:17:53,920 --> 00:18:01,840 we live a bit isolated so when you go into that journey it's a way to reconnect and bring 173 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:10,000 some perspective about you place into the universe as an individual and new connection to 174 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:18,720 the humankind and to life so it helps to overcome that disconnection and that process is sometimes 175 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:25,040 you know a bit intense I mean at the same time that you have access to information you can 176 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:32,160 have purge out all the elements of tension or all the nuts energy can nuts that you've been 177 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:38,640 creating or have been creating and the medicine in a way Ayahuasca entire and facilitate the release 178 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:46,240 so it clears you know with the body clears the emotional charge with this physical purge and allow you 179 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:53,200 to like get rid of any negative charge and come back more into balance so people might vomit or 180 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:59,520 they might cry or they might thrash around or it can be very intense and transformative as you 181 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:06,480 mentioned singing and music is a very important part of the healing and the traditional singing 182 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:15,440 are called e-cados and the practitioners in a way in singing calls on the energy of all the 183 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:20,960 plant spirit that he has been in connection during his time of training during what we call the 184 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:29,280 "jeta" that I mentioned before in that concept of vegetalism actually Ayahuasca in the training comes 185 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:35,760 after a practitioner would first get to know the different medicinal plants get to know the 186 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:41,760 Amazonian pharmacopoe would go on long isolation in the jungle where he would be in touch with all 187 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:47,920 these different medicine drinks those medicinal plants are non-psychoactive but following those 188 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:56,960 trick restrictions he would be able to empower his sensitivity and power his awareness and empower 189 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:04,960 his knowledge with the connection of those plants spirit so slowly the spirit of the plant will come 190 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:12,480 and teach him through the dreams through a certain awareness a certain perception and then when he 191 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:20,480 finishes that time of preparation he comes back into society into the community and close that diet 192 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:27,360 close that time of training that is a training with an exposure directly to nature and two spirits 193 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:34,000 of nature so then when he drinks Ayahuasca Ayahuasca becomes that vehicle that channel that you open 194 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:42,080 in that journey to connect with the spirits so in the ceremony context the singing helps to call 195 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:48,880 the spirits and those plants medicine spirit energy into the circle of the participants 196 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,320 and you yourself went through this this training in order to prepare yourself to be an Ayahuasca 197 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,880 healer what were some of the things that you encountered in your own training was it very difficult 198 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:04,400 were there a lot of realizations and insights and transformations that you went through well as a 199 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,200 Westerner you know and grew up in the Western world I had a lot of concept around spirituality and 200 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:15,280 religions that was kind of limiting my perception and understanding of nature so there's a lot of 201 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,960 blockage it's almost like if my cup were already full then I had to empty my cup and we filled it with 202 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,640 a different perception of what is in nature and what is the spirit and I had to deal with all that 203 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:36,000 fear that sometimes we grow with a positive or negative things and there is a lot of magic and there's 204 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,920 a lot of manifestations that have happened during the series that I had in Peru or things that I 205 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:48,800 thought were impossible or I was very scared of at the beginning really being able to see the 206 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:55,520 presence of plant spirit without drinking any kind of psychoactive to facilitate that I guess I had 207 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:02,560 like a deep fear about that in a way in myself yeah because that might be called madness or psychosis 208 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:08,560 or a delusion from a Western perspective it might be called like that also you know sometimes there's 209 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,840 a belief that it's associated with something very negative or some kind of evil or you're going to 210 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:20,480 get hurt with time and overcoming that fear you understand that there is forces and energy 211 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:29,520 in nature that actually are there and its own perception that is modified and then we get we open 212 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,760 ourselves into the perception of the singing the acceptance and recognition of them and we build up 213 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:42,800 an awareness and so that's what I went through I saw some spirits walking in ceremonies and 214 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,720 manifestations and sometimes also good manifestation and bad manifestation as there is all different 215 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:57,840 kinds of forces in nature it was a very interesting it was a very interesting process and the empowering 216 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:04,320 process if you're just tuning in this is madness radio and we're speaking with Francois Demage 217 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:09,520 he's a practitioner of traditional amazonian medicine he has a background in anthropology 218 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:15,280 and has studied with the indigenous people of the pruvian amazon for 17 years using plant spirit 219 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:21,040 medicine including ayahuasca and we're speaking about amazonian indigenous healing and mental health 220 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:26,800 and you were really changed from the beginning of your training to the end how long did it take the 221 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:33,280 training that you did so I believe myself that any person who's serious in the use of ayahuasca 222 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,880 wants to become a healer needs at least to be exposed to 10 serious years of training and it's 223 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,880 another thing that I would like to to bring up with your permission is that today which is very 224 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:51,600 interesting in the North American society we see that the use of ayahuasca has been more and more 225 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:59,200 popular its original context or where it's from originally and its original uses which is mainly 226 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:05,440 for healing or spiritual connection has been modified in a way into the modern uses that is given 227 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:14,000 to our society I think that is a desire to connect with spirituality or consciousness and the use 228 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:21,520 of psychoactive always has been used or has been seen as amazing tools to do so so we have many kind 229 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:28,960 of ceremony that are happening today in the US where that tradition is not necessarily respected 230 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:37,600 or is not so much talked about and the focus in is mainly given around the use of ayahuasca 231 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:43,440 but the world also concept of plant spirit and the preparation of the partition with this forgotten 232 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:51,440 so the healing aspect and the role of the healer is placed on a second on a second plan where in the 233 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:59,200 tradition I come from that role is also fundamental to facilitate a safe base and a healing that's 234 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:05,440 going to take place only because the healer has gone through a tremendous preparation so are there 235 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,960 some risks or dangers that might be associated with the popularization of ayahuasca because now I 236 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:16,000 mean there are ceremonies growing in the United States and a lot of especially young people who maybe 237 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,280 have some interest in psychedelics and they may be done have done mushrooms or done LSD they think 238 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,320 oh this is another opportunity to have a trip is there some risk and danger associated with that? 239 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:32,880 Yeah I think so I think there is some danger but also we cannot take away that ayahuasca is a 240 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:38,160 medicine that plants have an amazing way of interacting with the people I think the danger is 241 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:46,560 more how it is provided and what kind of environment is created for the ceremony to happen some people 242 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:52,880 are doing amazing work just facilitating a ceremony with the use of medicine ayahuasca to 243 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:59,840 empower personal journey and self-realization not necessarily with a traditional healing or 244 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:07,120 a entered ceremony it still can be very beneficial you know I totally believe that but it's very important 245 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:14,720 to have experience and to do it in a sacred way with lots of respect and and prepare the people 246 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,920 to go in a strong transformation eventually yeah and it's currently legal in Europe and the 247 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:26,400 United States under a religious practice is that right? It is actually legal in the United States 248 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:32,560 the Supreme Court of America have you know vote positive decision on that and actually in the 249 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:38,480 state of Oregon the Church of the Santo Dime which is such religious organizations that was 250 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:45,520 said in Brazil that is using ayahuasca as a sacrament is actually legal in Oregon that's been 251 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:53,600 recognized here and again it's a non-traditional use of ayahuasca from its its origin but it's it's 252 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,560 been used in a in a religious context there as a sacrament. Francois I would love if you would give us 253 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:04,800 a little feeling of the ayahuasca experience by sharing some of your singing could you do that for us? 254 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:11,920 yeah so I have that song that actually I drum on with traditionally it's not drum but the drum I think 255 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:18,240 is a very particular touch it's a catch what I miss the song and it's it's a song that talks about 256 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:24,320 the spirit of ayahuasca coming and opening the effect for the people and taking them into their 257 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:33,520 journey guided by the Kumaseba tree and crossing the rivers of the journey and to go on the other 258 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,760 side and to find your own healing. 259 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,760 [Music] 260 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:49,760 [Music] 261 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,760 [Music] 262 00:27:53,760 --> 00:28:03,760 [Music] 263 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,760 [Music] 264 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:17,760 [Music] 265 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:27,760 [Music] 266 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:37,760 [Music] 267 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:47,760 [Music] 268 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:57,760 [Music] 269 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:07,760 [Music] 270 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,760 [Music] 271 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,760 [Music] 272 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,760 [Music] 273 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,760 [Music] 274 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:31,760 [Music] 275 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:41,760 [Music] 276 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:51,760 [Music] 277 00:29:51,760 --> 00:30:01,760 [Music] 278 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:09,760 [Music] 279 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:19,760 [Music] 280 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,760 [Music] 281 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,760 [Music] 282 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,760 wow thank you 283 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:28,800 you're welcome 284 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,520 friends while you had mentioned ayahuasca and addiction are there some examples of people that you've 285 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:39,520 helped with addiction and what kind of transformation did they go through with ayahuasca ceremony? 286 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:47,440 Well ayahuasca you know even if that sounds funny I guess in our society because lots of people 287 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:55,840 say that a drug is very helpful for addiction it helps in the purge to clear any kind of it helps 288 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:03,200 to clear in the purge exposure to addictive substance because it clears the energy of the body 289 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:10,960 so someone who's dealt with addiction will drink ayahuasca and will go in a transformation of the 290 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:19,440 physiological body and clear clear in the blood clear in the energy or weight of the addictive substance 291 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:27,440 and what's interesting also in the use of ayahuasca is that it is contrary of an addiction in terms of 292 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:36,720 quantity because the classical chemise that the more you use an addictive substance the more you need 293 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:44,080 to increase the volume of its uses and with the medicine ayahuasca it's a contrary the more you 294 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:51,520 use the medicine the less your body needs it because you become more sensitive, more open, more clear 295 00:31:52,160 --> 00:32:00,480 so the interaction is easier so on that physiological level it's very helpful and ayahuasca itself is not 296 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:07,040 it's not a toxic substance it doesn't harm the organs or cause any kind of toxic buildup in the body 297 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:14,160 No the contrary the only thing that's a bit heavy about is the liver because it tends to ferment a bit 298 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:22,080 and it hits up a bit the body so it's a bit heavy on the liver but it gets digested 299 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:31,440 very easily and it gets eliminated by the body in 24 hours so it's in you know nothing stays 300 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:39,360 in the blood or it's not sticky at all like in comparison for example with THC 301 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:47,760 Marijuana which is highly used today in a modern society Marijuana stays in the blood for a couple of 302 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:56,080 days or three days a THC is very sticky it's very heavy to be eliminated and ayahuasca gets eliminated 303 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:04,480 naturally very easily by the body also on the level of an emotional component the person who takes 304 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:14,560 a medicine it's going to have a boost of the serotonin in the brain so it helps like dealing with 305 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:23,120 problems with depression and it really helps to connect with the inner self and it helps confidence 306 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:31,680 but sometimes also it doesn't happen like that in one night so it's a therapy so it needs a buildup 307 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:37,920 it needs a certain consistency in practicing in ceremony to get to the point where the medicine 308 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:44,240 can really enjoy it and create the basis for healing then it still happens and have you seen 309 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,600 people be able to stop using an addictive substance or really overcome their addictions and how did 310 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:55,600 they achieve that through through ayahuasca so I think you know and that's my position around it 311 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:04,240 I've had lots of ceremony with addicted people I believe that ayahuasca is an amazing vehicle to help 312 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:10,960 addiction or people have been through addiction to reconnect with themselves get cleared and have 313 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:17,920 a strong sense of awareness of why the addiction was there or where it's come from and go back to 314 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:26,400 the trauma pre-addiction that really brings them knowledge about what's going on I don't believe 315 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:35,680 that ayahuasca is going to heal totally the addiction I believe that it helps to bring the 316 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:46,880 knowledge and to bring the perspective around it but then the patient needs to step into his own homework 317 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:53,520 if I can say so and and duty to move forward in his life addiction is always going to be there 318 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,560 temptation is always going to be there opportunities for using always going to be there it's not because 319 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:04,400 he's done ayahuasca that's certainly it's going to go away what's going to go away is that fog is 320 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:12,800 that disconnection is that suffering but then the temptation is there everyday in life once you 321 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,760 you know you've tried something sometimes people have your heart I'm stopping doing that 322 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:24,080 what about other mental health uses for ayahuasca which are really seeing more spiritual problems I 323 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:31,040 mean there's this whole idea of soul loss that someone who might be in a US context diagnosed as 324 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:37,280 schizophrenic or something would in the context of amazonian medicine be seen as suffering a 325 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,640 disconnect from their soul and then how does ayahuasca potentially help that person well you 326 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:48,080 think mental health traditionally in addition you people will see in a very different ways than us 327 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:54,960 you know what's very important to to say that ayahuasca is not necessarily good for everything and for 328 00:35:54,960 --> 00:36:02,400 everyone here again in the tradition I was brought the patient that have a strong trauma 329 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:10,400 always dealing with a very strong pathology is not taking the medicine into the ceremony context 330 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:17,840 until the practitioner has been or has built a very strong sense of the problematic of the patient 331 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:24,640 and know that the person is strong enough and has the capacity to overcome the journey 332 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:32,080 but the patient is going to be in ceremony and the practitioner in the journey is going to go 333 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:38,640 and look to the causes of the trauma and facilitates an a therapy through the singing 334 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:46,160 through energy work and I have the patient overcome that and find balance for mental disorder 335 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:55,600 in some cases for bipolar or for big depression or sometimes psychosis you know ayahuasca can be 336 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:04,880 very helpful but the dosification and the environment in which he's given must be done in by someone 337 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,360 we really know and have experience about it so for doing energy work or for learning information 338 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:17,120 and gaining knowledge what kinds of things happen in that ceremony that that help people is their 339 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:24,480 information about ancestors is their information about spirit possession or the influence of shocks 340 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,680 that the person has gone through what is it that actually is the healing process for people who 341 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,280 might have more severe mental health problems there is different types of information that 342 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:42,400 shows up there's information for the patient which is not necessarily the same manifestation 343 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:48,320 than for the practitioner which is kind of interesting and sometimes brings a debate you know 344 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:57,760 there is always a bit of a gap to how the practitioner perceives in his journey the configuration 345 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:04,320 or the reality of the patient and how the patient perceives himself what the medicine ayahuasca 346 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:10,240 brings into his visual about his own pathologies and it's something that have happened to me a lot 347 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:17,680 I mean I had even some patients that came to ceremonies in poor with cancer and very severe 348 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:23,760 pathologies their journey was all about transformation and having access to 349 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:32,960 beauty of life and research realization what they need to do to overcome their disease or 350 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:39,360 understanding of their relationship with others of themselves or how to love themselves and resolve 351 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:48,080 some emotional component and my journey was all about cancer and seeing the disease in the body 352 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:56,160 into the vision and how the imbalance of the energy manifested so it was way more it was it was 353 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:02,880 different and I think that that was interesting you mentioned previously that in a ceremony you will 354 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:11,360 sing in a way that will change a vibration and then you'll see a reaction in the patterns that 355 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:18,480 you're seeing as a vision around the the patient and then you use that as kind of like a tool to change 356 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,160 the frequency or change the pattern that's you're seeing yeah it is very very interesting and it's 357 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:31,840 actually hopefully a book that I want to write in the future is about the manifestation of the 358 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:38,720 pathology in the visual through the journey of ayahuasca when when you have a certain practice with 359 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:48,560 time you recognize into the visual pathologies the visuals into the journey of ayahuasca comes into 360 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:56,800 a fractal of different lights and lines that makes sense and that sense is built up only with practice 361 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:02,800 of course at the beginning it's like what is also what is this all about it doesn't really make sense 362 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:09,840 sometimes you can have very clear pictures of moments of your life of understanding of situations 363 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:16,320 but most of the time in this is kind of grid of colors and lines that interact with you 364 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:24,480 and in those lines there is manifestation of shapes manifestation of spirits and unbalanced 365 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:32,400 so when you sing when you're practitioner and you see those lines and you sing with the singing 366 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:38,240 it's like painting shows up into those lines it's almost if the singing 367 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:49,040 create a reaction into the patient that helps manifesting into those lines what is actually going 368 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:57,040 on into the patient's body spirit and mind so you can understand and you can go into the root 369 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:08,560 of the problem with the singing and modifying singing modifying that grid to to try to release whatever 370 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:14,160 you know negativity you perceive or to try to improve it into a more balanced and rooted 371 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:20,640 and a jetty called field and that interacts directly with the patient and then also in terms of 372 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:26,080 the interactions with spirits are there negotiations or communications to spirit sometimes bring 373 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:32,720 messages that have to be struggled with or integrated for the person or maybe the spirit needs 374 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,480 something and then it has to be provided by the person or the or the community 375 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:44,560 sometimes it is like that sometimes there is ceremony that some spirits would manifest or 376 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,280 there is ceremonies where you see that some patients have some kind of possession 377 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:56,400 if I may say so or they just I would say they just got exposed into their lives through behavior or 378 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:04,080 through things they've done or people they've been exposed to with certain energies that in the 379 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:10,560 ceremony have a spiritual manifestation and I think it's important to place it like that for 380 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:18,320 you know Western context and to make it more sense do you ever get frightened during ceremonies 381 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,600 or do you ever deal with spirits or energies that seem really overwhelming or scary well you know 382 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,640 what's interesting and people should know when you're traditional practitioner and you do ceremonies 383 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:36,080 it's not only about taking a medicine that makes you high and do some singing around it the difficulty 384 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,840 consists first of all in being able to see what's going on and that takes a lot of years of practice 385 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:48,160 to develop that awareness in the visions and then when you have a patient that you're treating 386 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:55,360 and you're singing you not only seeing what's going on but you feel there is an energetic transfer 387 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:03,120 with the patient so you carry on that energy for a while and then you release it for the patient 388 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:09,360 you release it during the time of the healing but during that time it can be a bit scary and it has 389 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:17,360 been definitely difficult at the beginning and the bit frightening you know but you get the support 390 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:23,280 of all the practitioners you get the perspective of people who have a practice for a long time 391 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,120 and then you understand how those things work and you build your own confidence and awareness and 392 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,480 and your own strength and the more you go the more you see the harder it is but the more you're 393 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,960 able to work through it and to transcend so we talked about addiction and we talked a little bit 394 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:44,960 about this idea of soul loss what are some other mental health uses that ayahuasca can be can be 395 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:52,480 helpful with yeah I think ayahuasca is very good for depression in particular and anxiety it is 396 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,280 a therapy that could be very helpful I had a lot of people with depression that have actually 397 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:04,320 overcome the depression people that come with use of anti-depressant which actually have created 398 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:12,400 more addiction patterns in them and I've come to ceremonies and I've actually let go the medication 399 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:19,520 to then resolve the depression and work back into the life with more freedom because they don't 400 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:28,080 have a dependency into a drug taking daily basis thing anxiety for sure it's an anogetic 401 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:34,560 will and balance you know the thing with this kind of therapy this kind of healing this traditional 402 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:42,960 healing therapies it can be used for almost any kind of pathologies but it's very hard to draw 403 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:50,960 general line there is this component of individualism that is very important and it's very important 404 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:57,600 to let the people know about that when someone has a problem if you see a serious practitioner 405 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:04,160 that has a traditional background and a strong preparation he wants to see you he wants to get to 406 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:10,480 know you you're going to talk about your pathology and he's going to see if he can help you but just 407 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:17,600 to say that I was I can heal all different kind of depression it would be wrong but to say that 408 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:23,680 it's very good for depression it's right then there's a component of individual that is very important 409 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:30,000 so each case needs to be seen and also what about people who are suffering maybe from grief of 410 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,160 someone that they've lost or maybe they're in a conflict in their life that they are having 411 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,200 difficulty in their relationships which also can have mental health implications in terms of 412 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,360 anxiety or depression is is it sometimes used for healing that as well? 413 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:49,600 Definitely because if the person takes the medicine and get guided into the journey he's going to 414 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:59,520 be able to really visit that trauma or visit that difficulty what I was going to do is in the 415 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:07,360 journey and that's a difficult part for the participant it reveals the trauma so anything that 416 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:14,560 was kind of underlayer comes to surface so you get to go through that trauma again during the 417 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:21,760 ceremony or release it and then you free of it so this is where it could be a difficult time 418 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:28,160 but it's very beneficial because then you entice a nut yeah there is a sense of liberation 419 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,760 and resolution. Friends while we don't have a lot of time left in the interview but I wanted to 420 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:39,440 ask you about the future because ayahuasca is really growing in interest here in the United States and 421 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:45,360 there's more and more research that's being directed into it are you hopeful that the wisdom and the 422 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:51,840 power of Amazonian healing medicine will continue to grow and to reach more people and benefit more 423 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:57,120 people's lives in the United States and Europe and the rest of the world. Well that's a bit what I'm 424 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:04,000 trying to do you know in bringing education and awareness of its traditional component and I'm 425 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:11,440 hopeful that yes more research more openness is going to be happening into a society in the use of 426 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:18,480 this medicine but I have also some concern today we definitely facing a growth in the use of this 427 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:26,960 medicine into a society in the United States and Europe. I think there is an urge to create some 428 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:37,760 serious education and try to help in preparing more people around how to use this medicine and 429 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:45,200 make it safe and make sure that everyone is taking care in a good way and this tradition 430 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:54,720 are respected and and it keeps growing in a positive way and not and the sense of safety is there for 431 00:47:54,720 --> 00:48:00,640 for the people. And friends, well how can people get in touch with you if they want more information 432 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,600 or where might they go if they want to learn more about Io Asuka, and Amazonia, and healing medicine? 433 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:21,760 We have a website that is called vegetarianism.org, which is a website we're still like building up, 434 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,680 it's going to provide information around the traditional use of Io Asuka, and the traditional use 435 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:35,200 of Amazonian medicine. And there is lots of information available online and people can google it. 436 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:40,720 Francois Dimanche, thank you for joining us today on Madness Radio. Thank you so much, Will, thank you. 437 00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:44,800 You've been listening to an interview with Francois Dimanche, he's a practitioner of traditional 438 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:49,920 Amazonian medicine with a background in anthropology for 17 years. He studied with the 439 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:55,600 indigenous people of the Proving and Amazon using plant spirit medicine, including Io Asuka. 440 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,640 That's all the time we have on Madness Radio, thanks for tuning in. 441 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:08,400 You've been listening to Madness Radio, voices and visions from outside mental health. 442 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,640 Madness Radio is co-sponsored by peer-run support communities, Freedom Center, 443 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:18,400 the Echorus Project, and Portland Hearing Voices, hosted by Will Hall, music producer is John Rice, 444 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,520 with technical assistance from Jeremy Lansman. Listen to our internet stream, podcast and show 445 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:29,680 archives at MadnessRadio.net. Madness Radio can be heard on FM stations on the Pacifica Radio Network, 446 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:38,400 including KVOO in Oregon, WXOJ, and WPCR in Massachusetts, Alaska's KWMD, and WPRR in Michigan. 447 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:43,920 If you have an idea for a story or guest on Madness Radio, to help get us broadcast on a station 448 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:55,760 near you or if you just want to share what's in your head, contact radio@madnessradio.net.