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[Music]

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What does it mean to be called "crazy" in a crazy world?

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Listen to Madness Radio, voices and visions from outside mental health.

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[Music]

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Welcome to Madness Radio, this is your host Will Hall.

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And today my guest is Craig Noons.

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Craig is an author, musician, historian and critical psychologist.

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He is the author of more than 200 academic articles and two dozen books,

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including racism and psychology, and he was a licensed clinical psychologist in UK.

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Craig is a singer and guitarist in two bands and has run several competitive

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marathons among other accomplishments.

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So welcome to Madness Radio, Craig Noons.

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Thank you.

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Wow, that's quite a list in your bio there.

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We had to actually cut it short because you've got a few other accomplishments, right?

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Well, I don't know if being Jewish is an accomplishment, but surviving as a year

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isn't a accomplishment.

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Yeah, oh, okay.

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So we'll put that in there and also you mentioned that you're the father of six children.

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I am indeed, and surviving that's an even bigger accomplishment.

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Right.

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Yeah, you mentioned before that you haven't so far managed to kill any of them.

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And I suggested maybe the bar should be a little bit higher on your parenting.

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So, well, listen, let's, yeah, that's a very interesting background you have.

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And so for people who don't know anything about you or haven't met you, anything, tell

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us a little bit about your background, how you got involved with this and what your relationship

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to critical psy.

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I think you said because it's psychology, psychotherapy and psychiatry altogether.

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So what's, tell us about your background with that.

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You have to go back quite a long way.

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My dad was an ordinary working class boat bloke and he worked in a factory and I left home

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when I was 17, also to work in a factory.

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And at the age of 19, I was, I thought there must be an easier life than this.

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So I applied to university and I got a, I got a place at university to do an undergraduate

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degree in psychology, which I found both foolish and very easy.

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But I also did in my last year, my third year, I attended a lecture of a guy who was talking

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about a career in clinical psychology.

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What was astonishing about the lecture from my point of view was he put up a load of

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pay scales on a board.

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And what it seemed to indicate was that you all pay went up every year without needing to

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go on strike because they were professional, you know, they were professional pay scales,

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incremental scales.

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And I'd never known anything like that.

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And I thought, that's the job for me, I thought.

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Right.

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Because when you're working in a factory, it doesn't quite work that way.

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No.

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You work 12 hours a day, often you work 12 hour nights and you're exhausted by the end of

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the week.

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And if you want more money, you have to go on strike.

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The work kind of factories, was it just curiosity?

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I worked in a, I worked in a rope factory where they, I was what's called an extruder operator.

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And I extruded nylon to make ropes.

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And those ropes ultimately went to huge ocean liners after they'd been round, round each

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other several times.

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I worked in bird's eye.

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I worked in Christian Salverson and I eventually stopped because I was working as a ceiling

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Tyler.

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And it was just so cold getting up at four in the morning to go and put these ceilings

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up in different places around the south of England.

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So I'd had enough by them.

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So no, this guy put these pay scales up and I thought that's the job for me and I did a,

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what's called a diploma in clinical psychology.

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I then I did my doctorate in clinical psychology.

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What got me into critical psychology was looking around me and thinking this, this system

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is just terrible.

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This system can't work.

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I wasn't a sort of simplistic critical psychiatrist.

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I'd known a couple of very good psychiatrists.

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In fact, I trained in Boston.

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I worked in the States for a couple of years.

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And my supervisor there and my own analyst was a psychiatrist.

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And he was a, I thought he was good.

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I enjoyed him.

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But back in England, what I discovered was various psychiatrists were doing terrible

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things like a electro shock.

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But also clinical psychology itself seemed to be so keen on getting paid as much as psychiatrist

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did that they didn't really care what they were asked to do.

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So psychologists were assessing people.

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They were offering all sorts of nonsensical therapies.

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And so I started writing about that and I worked in a big department of psychological therapies

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in the National Health Service.

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I eventually had about 60 clinical staff working for me of whom I would say probably 20 came

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because they were as critical as I was.

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And it was quite strange because they weren't critical of their salary.

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You say they had no problem getting paid $70,000 a year.

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But they were very critical of the system they worked in and many of them were extremely

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dedicated and simply good at changing people's lives.

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So it didn't change people's lives by talking to them.

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They would talk to them a bit and then they would go and see what that person needed and

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very frequently.

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Of course, that person needed money.

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What a surprise.

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What was it that you saw the system wasn't working and you became critical of it because

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it sounds like you stayed in the system and you continued to do it, but you wanted to

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do things differently like say, for example, focus on what people's needs are in terms of

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economics or poverty rather than other kinds of needs.

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So what does it mean to be a critical psychologist, I guess?

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Let's assume someone comes up with a new therapy.

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There is something like 600 forms of therapy out there at the moment and there are far more

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in America than there are anywhere else.

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There are indeed 600 forms of therapy.

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Now if we had an easy way of changing people, you'd only need a couple of forms of therapy.

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But actually there are 600.

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I think there are 600 because it's a market.

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What the market does is it generates more and more therapies.

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I looked around me and I saw a market for different kinds of therapy.

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I've done various therapies.

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That's why I'm so sane.

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I've done all sorts of things.

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There's also a huge market for drugs and of course an enormous market for electric shock

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machines.

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Although that's reducing slightly now because they're using more sophisticated devices, the

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market is driven by self-interest.

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So in terms of being a critical psychologist, what I do is if someone produces a paper that

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says, "Here's the latest therapy, etc., etc., etc., I deconstruct it in terms of self-interest.

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I look at it in terms of what are the benefits, not to the public, but what are the

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benefits to the writer in doing these things?"

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Have you heard of boudoir photography?

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Boudoir photography, it was one of the therapies that Szasz critiqued in the myth of psychotherapy.

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At the time there were only 60 psychotherapies, but one of them for which you could get insurance

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payments was called Boudoir photography.

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There's Thomas Szasz critiqued this.

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And the idea was that if you were very depressed, if you were miserable, if you were feeling

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pretty bad, you went to a Budwa photographer who took a photograph of you in quote, "Your

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best negligee," whatever that is, but a negligee.

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And then when you were feeling particularly miserable, when you were feeling awful, you

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would get the photograph out of your pocket and you would automatically feel better.

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Okay, so this was a legit therapy.

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Completely legit.

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Paid for by insurance companies.

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In the UK.

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No, no, in America.

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In America, okay.

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In the States.

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Okay.

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And this was there.

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Was there a so-called evidence base?

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There was the research that said, "Oh, yes, this is effective and productive and produces

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change and scores on testing, etc., etc."

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Well, I think that's my point of self-interest.

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It was indeed effective.

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It was extremely effective for the Boudoir photographer who earned money out of it.

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And in the end, that's the essence of so many of these so-called new therapies.

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They are ways of creating a space in the market and drug companies do it in sort of therapists.

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But the claim would be, if someone is promoting Boudoir photography as a psychotherapy, the claim

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would be, "Well, we did a randomized control trial.

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We took these people and we gave them Boudoir photography and we took this other group and we

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didn't."

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And the people that we gave are preferred kind of therapy to produce better results.

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And so is there substance to that?

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Or is that also just part of the marketing?

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There's no substance to the idea of RCTs for Boudoir photography.

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But there's actually no substance to the idea of people researching therapy.

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Because people don't research their own therapy.

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Let's assume you have a new patient comes to see you.

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And in my old department, in my practice, what we would do, we would say, "Name three things

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that you want from seeing me."

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And those things could be anything at all that the person wants.

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And then we'd write them down and that would become the contract.

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Sounds similar to the way that I work with people.

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Yeah.

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And when that was finished, we would see whether that person felt they'd achieved those things

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or not.

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And six months later, we'd look at it again.

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Now we published the results of all of that.

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We were the only department out of hundreds of departments in National Health Service to

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publish results on its own therapy using that kind of methodology.

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What happens is most people look at RCTs and then they claim to be doing, "Let's assume it's

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cognitive behaviour therapy."

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People will look at the results of RCTs, randomised controls.

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They will claim to be following whatever the protocol is.

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So it might be dialectical behaviour therapy.

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It might be cognitive behaviour therapy.

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There could be anything.

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They'll claim to follow that.

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What they won't do is then assess in the way we used to assess whether the people they saw

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felt any better or not.

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If the people didn't feel better, they would frequently blame the therapy because heaven forbid

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it was the therapist.

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Right.

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I mean, this makes me think of the research that I've seen that also explains why there's

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maybe so many different kinds of therapy out there.

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Because it doesn't really, the therapy doesn't really matter.

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It's really the therapist.

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It's the relationship between the therapist and the client.

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It's really about how that relationship is established and how much feedback there is

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and how much confidence the therapist has that they can be helpful in focusing on the

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client's needs.

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As we know, therapists are brilliant at relationships.

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Absolutely none of them have divorces or affairs.

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Absolutely none of them beat their children.

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You see, I think the idea that a therapist can somehow bond with a complete stranger in

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such a way that that person changes.

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Despite the fact the context of the person's life doesn't change, I think that's another

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illusion.

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I think that's arrogance.

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And the other thing, of course, is that most therapists will, you know, when I was in analysis,

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I was in analysis three times a week and some of my friends were in five times a week.

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Most therapists, particularly in the National Health Service, only see their patients once

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a week for maybe an hour.

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The idea that having a relationship for an hour a week with a therapist can somehow change

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you is just heubristic on the part of the therapist.

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You could spend an hour with Jesus and nothing much would happen.

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So you would have the people that you're working with identify the specific goals that they

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had.

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So if it wasn't the therapy that was doing it and it wasn't the relationship that was

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doing it, was it just time?

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Was it just that the person had six months of time to get some progress towards their goals?

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I mean, what is your view of what is good therapy from a critical psychology perspective?

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Because I mean, some people would say, you're right, forget it.

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The whole premise of psychotherapy is a fraud.

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We just need human relationships and friendships and community.

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But you are talking about providing some kind of therapy.

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So what is the reason that it's effective or helpful or positive?

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I think I provide it a safe space.

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And I provide it a safe space in a number of ways because I was actually the boss of this

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place.

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I could organize things like the waiting rooms.

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And so we had internet connections in the waiting rooms that absolutely anyone could use.

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We had free refreshments for all the patients.

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And so just coming to the service for some people was much nicer than the kind of places

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where they lived.

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Some of those people would spend an hour with a therapist and then they'd spend six hours

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in the waiting room where it was nice and warm in order to keep away from the violence at

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home.

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So one of the things I'd say I did was I provided a big safe space in terms of a place where

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patients could meet other patients over a coffee or whatever.

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But also in the room itself.

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And I worked a lot with women who had been in very associative relationships.

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I think for some of them, well I know for many of them, they were terrified the moment they

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walked in because he was a tall guy with a beard and they were meant to somehow talk to

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me.

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And over a period of months they would eventually, not all of them, but some would eventually

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talk to me.

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Some would just turn around and say, no, this is unbearable.

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I can't be with you.

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So for the people who made it, as it were, it was a safe space.

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And some people took a very, very long time to make it.

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00:15:52,480 --> 00:16:00,560
I saw a guy who had had some horrible, horrible bereavement stuff going on.

241
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:07,960
I saw one guy for 12 years, which in the NHNational Health Service is virtually unheard of.

242
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,000
Because he's not a fee-paying service.

243
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:16,840
People come in 12 years is quite a long time in the National Health Service.

244
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,640
I think he's formed an addiction, I think.

245
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,840
But usually the NHS won't approve that kind of.

246
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,160
Because it's managed, right?

247
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,880
It's not just a voluntary outcome as much as you want.

248
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,920
Oh no, no, exactly.

249
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,120
And I was indeed, but because I was the Oval Director.

250
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:33,120
Ah, I see.

251
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,720
So you could let it go longer.

252
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:41,120
Yeah, the way we got around that was to, well, if you averaged it out, you see.

253
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,720
So some people would come and see me or somebody else.

254
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,680
They'd come just once.

255
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,400
Some people would come for 20 minutes and think, oh, this is awful.

256
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,480
Other people would come for several years.

257
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,000
If you averaged it out, it probably worked out around about three months.

258
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,280
And three months would have been acceptable.

259
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,040
You know, I saw hundreds of patients.

260
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:08,520
I really like this idea of thinking about what resources are missing in the community.

261
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,120
The person doesn't have a warm place to go.

262
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:15,400
If they don't have a safe place to go, a comfortable place, free refreshments, a place

263
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,320
to kind of hang out, use the internet, make friends.

264
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:24,320
And you're actually, in a sense, you're kind of providing a community development step

265
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,000
kind of or that community.

266
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,200
So yeah, so I really like that way of framing it.

267
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,560
It isn't the creation of safety also about the relationship.

268
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,200
I mean, aren't there some, did you find that some of the staff that you had, they just

269
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,520
weren't able to really create that kind of safe relationship with the individuals because

270
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:49,080
they didn't have that listening quality or that warmth or they didn't have that kind

271
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,240
of welcoming attitude towards people.

272
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:53,440
I'm not even sure what to say.

273
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,080
The quality of safety would be.

274
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,080
But.

275
00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,640
I guess the thing is that safety for some people is not safety for others.

276
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:01,640
That's right.

277
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:02,640
That's right.

278
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:10,040
So, for you and I, we might prefer warmth.

279
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,760
Somebody else might prefer firmness.

280
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:18,920
So there might, there might well be a therapist in the department who I regarded as, you know,

281
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,920
to firm, to authoritarian.

282
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,960
And yet, and yet that therapist would develop relationships with different kinds of people

283
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,680
to the ones I would develop relationships.

284
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,200
Yeah, I definitely hear that.

285
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,280
I mean, that's one of the things that I try and do is not make assumptions about what

286
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,800
the responsiveness is.

287
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:42,680
Some people need a lot of space of just listening and some people need more like a, hey, what about

288
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:43,680
this?

289
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:44,680
You said this last time.

290
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:45,680
Did you follow up on it?

291
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,560
I want to hold you to this.

292
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,320
And I think that's, that's about the quality of the relationship and the, um, the ability

293
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:58,600
to be responsive to the feedback and the sort of uniqueness of each person because it sounds

294
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,400
like in your service, you weren't just assuming everybody needed the same thing.

295
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,640
You were able to, to match people with different therapists that maybe they would do better

296
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,280
with or they would like better or they would connect with more, which makes a lot.

297
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,240
I think that's, I think that comes back to the whole marketing thing or maybe the capitalist

298
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:22,520
aspect of this is that we're, we're sort of mass producing a commodity of psychotherapy

299
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:28,440
rather than meeting individuals as individuals and relating to them more personally one-on-one

300
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,240
in a unique kind of way.

301
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:35,600
Well, it's sold as if it's a mass production process.

302
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,240
It's sold a bit like Snickers.

303
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:45,440
So it's like every, every therapy session called something CBT is going to be the same

304
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,240
as every other therapy session.

305
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,240
Right.

306
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,400
The ingredients are regulated and yeah, there's the same ingredients.

307
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,240
Yeah, yeah, which is observed because the different therapists and different life and

308
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,400
different context exactly.

309
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,400
That's the way it's sold, but it's not only a different therapist.

310
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,400
The therapist is a different therapist every day.

311
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:05,400
Yeah.

312
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,800
But we all change all the time.

313
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:13,760
So if, if one day you're feeling fairly calm and you're able to respond in ways that

314
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:19,960
or the person seeing you regardless, sympathetic and the following morning, you can't get a

315
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:20,960
parking space.

316
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:21,960
Right.

317
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:22,960
Right.

318
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:30,920
You turn up pissed off and the same patient suddenly finds you are much less understanding.

319
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,440
And you have no control over that.

320
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,200
Therapists like to create the illusion that they can somehow control the way they are.

321
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,600
But no one controls the way.

322
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,320
We can't control the way we are.

323
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,880
You and I are currently reacting to each other in terms of smiles and nods and all sorts

324
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,680
of other things.

325
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,040
But we have actually no idea what the other person is going to say next.

326
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,280
So we can't predict what's going to happen next.

327
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,480
Yeah, absolutely.

328
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,640
So then what about the argument that say, well, Craig, why did you stick around?

329
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,160
I mean, if there's so many problems with psychotherapy and you're a critical psychologist,

330
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,680
why not just find a different profession?

331
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:19,840
I mean, there are people who are more anti-psychotherapy and anti-psychology and anti-psychiatry

332
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:26,040
and don't even want anybody to be doing individual therapy because it should be about resources

333
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:32,760
and the community and mutual aid and friendships and rebuilding society and challenging economic

334
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,360
oppression and this whole perspective.

335
00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:36,920
What is it that kept you doing it?

336
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,920
You already know.

337
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:39,920
Okay.

338
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,240
It was a hell of a lot easier than working in a factory.

339
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,240
Right.

340
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,240
Right.

341
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,040
And I had six children to support.

342
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,040
Right.

343
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,040
Right.

344
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,880
Well, that's a pretty cynical answer.

345
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,160
Is that really the only reason that you did psychologies because it was an easier job and

346
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,680
you made some money?

347
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,480
Do you know the original definition of cynicism?

348
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,480
I...

349
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,520
It's a cynicism is from Greek philosophy, right?

350
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:05,520
Yeah, the cynic.

351
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,760
It's a pretty so-cratic, yeah, the cynics.

352
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,480
It's seeing life how it really is.

353
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,600
That's what cynicism is.

354
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,040
But you didn't feel any calling.

355
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,200
You didn't feel like you were actually really helping people and contributing to people's

356
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,960
lives and doing something positive and...

357
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,360
I think I did contribute to people's lives.

358
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,120
But remember, these people were completely...

359
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,480
Well, they weren't strangers by the time I'd seen them for a few sessions.

360
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:32,480
Yeah, yeah.

361
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,920
But many of these people were complete strangers to me.

362
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:43,160
And I had more than enough people around me to try and be kind to or provide for...

363
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,720
I didn't need to go somewhere else to do that.

364
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:52,600
It's just that the place where I went, I could earn some money doing it.

365
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,600
In addition to that, of course, because of my roles as a director, I did have the power

366
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,560
to appoint certain kinds of people.

367
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,520
And for example, I appointed a psychiatrist on the basis that...

368
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,200
She practiced cognitive analytic therapy.

369
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:16,280
But the deal was, I would only employ her if she didn't prescribe drugs.

370
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,960
And so she didn't prescribe drugs.

371
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,640
So I had a minimal amount of power in that regard.

372
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:28,640
So I guess there was a sense of not wanting to do harm.

373
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,720
I didn't want to create a toxic environment for people.

374
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:44,120
And most of my research is a rather small attempt to make things a little better.

375
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:52,520
But for every paper I write saying, "Electroshock is bad or drugs are bad or whatever."

376
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,280
There are hundreds and hundreds of papers saying, "Electroshock is great.

377
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,280
We need more drugs."

378
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,280
Right.

379
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,320
And I'm not a therapist.

380
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,080
So I don't pretend that I've made much difference.

381
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,120
But I know I've made a difference to my family.

382
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:10,240
They're all fed and well and very healthy and happy people.

383
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:11,320
Tell us a little bit more about it.

384
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,320
So critiquing...

385
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,920
Do you feel like electroshock should be banned?

386
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,440
Do you feel like medication should...

387
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,440
Drugs should not be used.

388
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,920
I mean, I'm certainly sympathetic to both of those perspectives.

389
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,360
But you said that they're bad.

390
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,840
So should we just abolish them?

391
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,840
Droshock is banned in Slovenia.

392
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:30,840
Good.

393
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,160
I'm glad to hear that.

394
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,880
It's the only country in the world where it's banned.

395
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,520
It was previously banned in Germany and Holland, but it's back there now.

396
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,600
In terms of drugs, I think you should be able to just buy them in a pharmacy.

397
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,160
What about recreational, so-called recreational drugs?

398
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,160
Would you say that?

399
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,160
All the same stuff.

400
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,160
All the same stuff.

401
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,760
The same as coffee, the same as whatever.

402
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:52,760
Yeah.

403
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,040
I would lean in that direction in terms of public policy.

404
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,240
And then you're not as... they're not sold as treatments for diseases or disorders.

405
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,240
Exactly.

406
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,400
This is a substance that's going to get you high...

407
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,400
Yeah.

408
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:04,400
Or not.

409
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:05,400
Or not.

410
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,400
Exactly.

411
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,480
And it takes the medical bit out of the equation.

412
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:11,480
Yeah.

413
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,760
I would really agree with that because that's part of the damage is that people are mystified

414
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,880
into thinking that these are somehow treatments and magical substances that are targeting symptoms

415
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,720
or imbalances or targeting your psychosis or something.

416
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,560
I would also remove one element of the American constitution.

417
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,200
Okay.

418
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,960
I would remove the right to seek happiness.

419
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,520
Happiness is such a temporary... you know, happiness...

420
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,520
Yeah.

421
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,520
You'll have been happy on occasion.

422
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,560
You might have looked at a sunset.

423
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,320
It's so temporary.

424
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:53,280
But people seek happiness through buying a big car or buying a beautiful house or having

425
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,720
a so-called perfect marriage.

426
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,520
And of course, happiness is very fleeting.

427
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:05,480
So the right to seek happiness implies it's a good thing to do to seek happiness.

428
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,200
I think you should just let life wash over you.

429
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,560
And if you find the occasional happy moment, good luck to you.

430
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:18,200
It's significant that religions and spiritual perspectives, even existentialism, doesn't

431
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,720
really see happiness as the highest.

432
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,720
It's actually a very trivial thing about life.

433
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,280
I think I would agree with that.

434
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,160
Pursuing happiness is a pretty shallow thing to do if you think about it.

435
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,320
Try being Jewish.

436
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,040
If I were Orthodox, I would have 613 Mitzvah to follow.

437
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,040
Right.

438
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,040
Right.

439
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,320
Not going to be happiness out of that.

440
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,320
In theory.

441
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,320
In theory.

442
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,320
Right.

443
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,560
But that's an awful lot of rules.

444
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:50,560
Yeah.

445
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,960
Salvation and redemption and transcendence may not be the same as happiness.

446
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,520
There's a number of different Buddhist teachings that really warn against going for experiences

447
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,800
of pleasure in meditation, even if it's relaxation.

448
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,440
So is that something that you bring?

449
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:11,400
Do you bring a spiritual or religious perspective to your life and work?

450
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:19,000
Well, in my book, in racism in psychology, I talk about, I'm not even going to talk about

451
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:26,200
my Jewish roots, I talk about the Jewish roots of psychology and how many theorists, like

452
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,720
Freud, for example, yeah.

453
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,840
How many theorists were Jewish?

454
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,080
Also, how many of the theories are essentially Jewish theories?

455
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:46,120
So Edito Suprigo is a version of a rabbinical belief about the nature of the self.

456
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:50,320
So in that sense, I bring religion in.

457
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:57,320
I've only seen a couple of people who saw me explicitly because I was Jewish and they

458
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,960
were also Jewish and therefore they trusted me.

459
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,760
Not quite sure why they trusted me.

460
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,360
You see, I have trouble with words like spirituality.

461
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:09,400
I don't know what it means.

462
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,240
One of my books is called Psychotherapy and Spirituality and one of the chapters in it

463
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:22,920
is by a wonderful Gargle David smile and his chapter is called How to F the Ineffable.

464
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,880
What he talks about is how spirituality is ineffable.

465
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,720
You simply, you can't touch it.

466
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,480
You can't actually say what it is.

467
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,520
But what will happen is someone who's having a so-called spiritual experience will say,

468
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:41,080
well, you can only know what this is like if you have this experience too.

469
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:47,000
Well, I don't know if I'd, I, I, I wouldn't know if I've had that experience.

470
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,440
I suspect not.

471
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,000
I certainly, I haven't had that experience going to synagogue.

472
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,040
I tell you they're grim places.

473
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,040
Yeah.

474
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,240
Yeah, formal institutional religion doesn't have a lot of appeal for me.

475
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:06,240
But I really relate to that because I think that I'm drawn to more inquiry around religion

476
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,960
or spirituality that proceeds negatively.

477
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,640
If we can clear the way, get language out of the way of what it is that we're in, then

478
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:19,520
some kind of silence or something comes in that is really ineffable and maybe poetry

479
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,960
and poetry and paradox might start to approach it.

480
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,800
I'm probably, I'm probably closer in terms of poetry.

481
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:29,800
Yeah.

482
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:35,120
I do believe that certain kinds of poetry, well, it depends, again, it's a dialectic, isn't

483
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,120
it?

484
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,120
It depends on who's reading it and how they're interpreting it.

485
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,120
Yeah.

486
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:46,440
But I do, I do, I do believe there are certain poems that are transcendent and somehow that

487
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,440
does something.

488
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,640
I don't know what it does, but it does something to me.

489
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:56,600
Often by poets that don't see themselves as religious or I can have a very religious spiritual

490
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,920
experience reading e-commings or Charles Bikowski and I just like, how strange.

491
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:07,520
I gave my son's girlfriend a copy of e-commings for her birthday.

492
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:08,520
Nice.

493
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,840
Because e-commings happens to be my favorite poet.

494
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:17,800
Oh, well, I'm looking at my copy of the complete poem that's over on the shelf right there because

495
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,040
I have an, oh, absolutely.

496
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,080
Yeah, and of course now is spring, his favorite time of year.

497
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,080
Yeah.

498
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,080
Yeah.

499
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:33,720
And he was extremely anti-politics and anti-organized religion and he was kind of a bit of a snob.

500
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:39,000
He was sort of against most humans because it seems like humans were missing the point.

501
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:46,520
But I love his, I love his, the immediacy of, I don't know, just the mystery and wonder of

502
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:52,520
life being the source of something transcendent and beauty and love and yeah.

503
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,680
In one of my books, which is Clinical Psychology, a critical examination which has a, was best

504
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,120
described as a bit of an assault on the Clinical Psychology profession.

505
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,920
Good for you.

506
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,720
That went down really well with some of my colleagues.

507
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:16,480
But in there, I have a long section on literature, particularly novels, that tell us a lot more

508
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,600
about being human than psychology ever can.

509
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:20,600
Absolutely.

510
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:26,120
And I think I was one of Freud and Jung's points that you don't, you don't become a good therapist,

511
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,200
let's say, by studying textbooks about neurobiology.

512
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,320
By being a human, studying philosophy, studying literature and that becomes back to what you were

513
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:41,680
saying about Freud drawing on the Jewish religious tradition in developing his views.

514
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,360
Because I think it was, it was also just the, he was a very synthetic writer.

515
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,080
He would borrow all these different things.

516
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,240
I mean, Nietzsche is hugely influential.

517
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,120
The Romantics were very influential on the origins of psychoanalysis.

518
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,080
Now, this is what I would interpret as self-interest.

519
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:04,800
So you mentioned one way of becoming a better therapist is to read literature.

520
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,760
What I'm talking about is being a better human being.

521
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,640
A better human being, excellent, yes.

522
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,040
I don't care about being a therapist.

523
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:20,680
And so the trouble is that so many of my, the people I used to see, you know, several of them,

524
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,720
several of them had money.

525
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,120
They could go to a library.

526
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,800
They could find a safe space in order to read.

527
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,800
And I would sometimes recommend, I don't know, we need the poo to them or whatever.

528
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,800
I'd, you know, I'd, I'd recommend a deeply, a deeply spiritual text, weighing the poo.

529
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:40,800
Indeed.

530
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,320
Yeah, the Tau of poo.

531
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,240
But I'd, yeah, I'd recommend various books to them.

532
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:54,440
The difficulty we're doing that, of course, is that when someone reads a particular text,

533
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,520
they interpret it in a particular way.

534
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:57,520
Absolutely.

535
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:58,520
Yeah.

536
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,920
So I might have well interpreted, I don't know, there's a wonderful book, came out in the 70s.

537
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,560
It was called Puff Ball by Fay Weldon.

538
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,520
It was a, it was a, it was a feminist book.

539
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,760
It was a book about a woman.

540
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,080
Puff Ball was, I thought, a great book about relationships.

541
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:24,800
But of course, I read that as a man, as a relatively young man, and recommending that to a 65

542
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,560
year old black woman on a housing estate would have probably had a completely different

543
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:31,560
outcome.

544
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,520
In fact, she'd have probably said, why on earth you giving me a book to read?

545
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,520
Right.

546
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,760
I need a lawyer in a bodyguard.

547
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:41,760
Right.

548
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:42,760
Right.

549
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,400
It doesn't speak directly to my experience.

550
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,600
Well, that makes, I'm always very cautious about recommending books or anything for that

551
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:50,600
reason.

552
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:56,480
But I also, I also want, sometimes I feel inspired or an intuition to, to offer something,

553
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,040
because it's meaningful to me.

554
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,520
And maybe it resonates with how the conversation has been going.

555
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,160
And one of the books that I find myself, this is maybe cliched, but I find myself recommending

556
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,080
a lot, is Victor Frankel's man's search for meaning.

557
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,080
And I'm just curious.

558
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,080
I do.

559
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,080
Oh, you hate that book.

560
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:18,040
I was, while I was thinking you might have a contrarian, a contrarian physician on that,

561
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,760
but I'm just curious.

562
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:25,240
I read, I read that when I was about, I was probably about 19.

563
00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:27,680
And I've read it a couple of times since.

564
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:33,760
And when I was first doing clinical psychology, I seriously thought about doing logotherapy,

565
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,760
because he came up with this single logotherapy.

566
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:37,760
Right, right.

567
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:46,720
However, about, or would it be 10 years ago now, Frankel was booed off stage by a group of

568
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:48,200
people.

569
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:55,040
And you can look this up on the web who had discovered that although his, I think his wife

570
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:03,320
died in Auschwitz, and his, I think his mother died in a different camp, up.

571
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:12,120
But Frankel himself was kept in a railway siding and then ended up going off to non, non-killing

572
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,960
camps.

573
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,880
So he wrote the book as if he was surviving Auschwitz.

574
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,440
It's just a lie.

575
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:20,840
He wasn't there at all.

576
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,280
You're, you're bursting my bubble here.

577
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,360
Greg, I appreciate it, but it's uncomfortable.

578
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,320
I've got worse than that.

579
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,240
Oh, no, he also.

580
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:36,720
He also volunteered to help doing brain experiments on Jewish inmates.

581
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:38,200
Oh, my gosh.

582
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,200
Okay.

583
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,200
I'm, he's stricken from huge.

584
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,440
I just canceled Victor Frankel from my recommendation.

585
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,680
Oh, I could, I could give you a whole list of people to cancel.

586
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:47,680
Oh, okay.

587
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,160
Well, we can, we can, we can go there for sure, but, but that's an, it's important that we

588
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,160
not idealize or put up on a platform.

589
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,800
So let's, let's think about, you know, if the myth of Victor Frankel is worth studying

590
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,760
rather than the actual history of Victor Frankel, there's this idea that even in the most

591
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:13,720
worse circumstances, we may, we may have some choice, even in the most powerless or oppressive

592
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,240
of circumstances, we may have some options.

593
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:19,760
And I'm just curious, like, because I had mentioned about your spirituality or maybe you

594
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:25,960
have a more existential or humanistic frame, but what is the, what is sort of your approach

595
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:32,320
to kind of the human condition or experience that maybe underlies a lot of, or maybe that's

596
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:33,320
nonsense.

597
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,760
Maybe it is really about just practical resources that people need for their own well-being

598
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,600
and, and thriving.

599
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:47,600
The reason I retired is that in 2000 and, it's beautiful.

600
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:57,800
2003, December 23rd, 2003 to be exact, I had a major car accident.

601
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:04,240
And I was in hospital in a suspended coma for three weeks.

602
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:10,120
And it was taken, it was taken for granted that I was going to die because I'd, I'd broken

603
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,120
my neck.

604
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,280
I had a twist of spinal cord.

605
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,240
I'd broken four ribs, punctured lung.

606
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,960
I had brain damage, you name it.

607
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,360
I was in a mess.

608
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,960
And my brother used to come and see me every day.

609
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:34,040
And the consultant, apparently, while I was unconscious, obviously, the consultant said to

610
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:39,240
my brother, I can't quite believe this.

611
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:43,280
He's choosing to live.

612
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,600
I wasn't choosing anything.

613
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,360
My body was living.

614
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,400
My body was doing what it does.

615
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,320
And you see, I know choice in the modern era is a big idea.

616
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,280
We can choose to be this person.

617
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,560
We can choose to be that person.

618
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,760
But I'm not sure I really believe in choice.

619
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,720
I think we just kind of do what we do and we do it almost automatically.

620
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:15,320
So for example, you're not going to choose what you say after I finish saying this.

621
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:16,320
That correct.

622
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:17,320
Yeah.

623
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:18,800
I mean, it's right.

624
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,080
And there's research.

625
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,600
There's, I guess, libets research looks at that.

626
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,840
That often the, we rationalize after the choices.

627
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,840
Yeah.

628
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,200
But it brings me back to something you said before about we were talking about spirituality.

629
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,560
And you said the ineffability of it.

630
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:38,320
And I think William James, his approach, because he had a pragmatic approach.

631
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,040
And then I find myself very connected to that.

632
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,280
His approach to spirituality and religion was very simple.

633
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,280
Does it make you a kinder person?

634
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:47,280
Does it?

635
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,920
How is it shown in its fruits, I think, is the idea is that does it actually have a practical

636
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:52,920
impact?

637
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,400
Because the getting high and connecting with God and having this far out experience, what

638
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,440
does it really mean if it's not actually contributing to the well-being of other people?

639
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:11,280
And so I'm also thinking of James, when you were saying about free will, I think his, the

640
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:18,440
conclusion that he came to was, I have free will because I choose to believe that I have

641
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,440
free will.

642
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,240
He couldn't practically prove that it existed.

643
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:26,720
In fact, the research suggests that, whoa, in fact, if you try, just try and turn off your

644
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:28,520
thinking or make changes in your life.

645
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:34,320
And you see that there's this automatic momentum that we have and the idea of free will is actually

646
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,760
often after the action.

647
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,320
But maybe as a kind of stance and existential stance in the world that believing as if we

648
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:50,120
have some choice does make us freer and more kind to the people around us and maybe more

649
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,760
courageous in challenging oppression and standing up for what's right.

650
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,560
I mean, I don't know.

651
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,800
But that would also work the other way, wouldn't it?

652
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:08,160
If you can believe in free will, be a member of the Catholic Church and be Mussolini.

653
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:14,800
And so it's not necessarily going to produce compassion or kindness and care.

654
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,440
No, so the choice, if you believe that people have a choice, then the choice through free

655
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,600
will can be in either direction.

656
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,040
And they can justify in terms of religion, spirituality, whatever.

657
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,040
Absolutely.

658
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:33,040
And there's no, there would be no moral guarantee that there would be one, the one path or the other.

659
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,280
But in this context, it's about hope for change.

660
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,600
If someone, because often people come in and they describe and they experience an overwhelming

661
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:48,200
force of circumstance that has crushed them and their position is very strongly.

662
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,000
I am powerless.

663
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,080
I am being controlled.

664
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,080
I am being devastated.

665
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,080
I am.

666
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,880
And we sort of turn it into a what's the victim role, but it's actually much more complicated

667
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:04,120
than that because it is a real experience of, yeah, of super powerlessness and people describe

668
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,120
depression.

669
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,800
I've experienced depression as a physical way that's crushing you down.

670
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:16,880
So the idea of choice and free will to me is tied to this sense, maybe it's faith that

671
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,080
there is hope that the person can find a way forward.

672
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,000
And maybe that's not free will that gives them, but there's some way out that it's not

673
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:31,120
just a hopeless, okay, you're a physical object that's been crushed by a rock.

674
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,840
And then that's the end of the conversation because you're in Auschwitz or you've been

675
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:40,440
oppressed or you're in an economic circumstance that there's always some possibility for growth

676
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,440
and change.

677
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,600
I guess Jung also had this sort of fundamental optimism towards people that there's a there's

678
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:54,400
a kind of a force of nature that's moving through giving opportunities, giving possibilities,

679
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:55,400
giving potential.

680
00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:00,760
And for me, that's what Fronkel's story, the myth of Fronkel versus the reality.

681
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,760
If I understand what you're saying correct and I believe it, that there is always going

682
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,960
to be that potential for humans to move forward.

683
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,680
Join me to burst your Jungian.

684
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,240
Please, please, please do.

685
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:12,840
I look, I'm familiar.

686
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,800
If you're going to go the Nazi German direction that I'm a little bit familiar with that.

687
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:23,240
I have looked at that colonialism, racism, I'm aware that Jung had his shadow, but please

688
00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:25,280
do burst my Jungian myth.

689
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,840
But I want to think about a little bit more about this free will and hope aspect.

690
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,720
Like how do you have hope for everybody that you work with that they can get better?

691
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:36,280
No, I don't believe they're ill.

692
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:37,280
Okay, okay.

693
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:38,280
I didn't say they're ill.

694
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:39,280
I just said better.

695
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:40,280
I'm on their own terms.

696
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,160
But someone says I can't afford to feed my children.

697
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,800
Do you have both hope and faith that that might change?

698
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,000
I don't have hope and faith, but I might have a system to help them do that.

699
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:56,000
But then what is your system based on if it's not the possibility at least a non-zero

700
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:02,720
chance that it's because I because the chances are I know more about the system than they

701
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,200
do.

702
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,280
So for example, if someone might not be claiming enough of their social security benefits.

703
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,360
And they'll say they can't afford this, they can't afford that.

704
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:21,000
And when I practiced, I would help them fill in their claim forms so they would get money.

705
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:26,040
So it wasn't just hope, it was a very practical piece of practical ways for I mean, I have the

706
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,880
same when I work with people around medications, I may understand something about coming off

707
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:36,200
or changing medications or I may that I may have a practical way that they don't know

708
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,120
yet about improving their circumstances.

709
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:45,160
What about just suffering in general, the idea that someone has some emotional?

710
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:52,520
Well, you were talking about offering hope and one of the things that David Smell used

711
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:59,240
to say and he said it very eloquently is that the job of a therapist in the end is probably

712
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:05,800
no more than offering clarification and hope.

713
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:13,680
And so the aim is to clarify what the person's difficulties might be and in doing that, they

714
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,800
might implant some hope.

715
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:23,560
The critical perspective on that would be that the clarification might indeed be helpful.

716
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:29,480
But the implication is that if your problems are clarified, you should be able to do something

717
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:30,480
about it.

718
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:31,480
You may not.

719
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:32,480
You may not.

720
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,920
And many, many people can't of course.

721
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:41,720
And so the outcome of that session or two is the patient actually feels a failure, they

722
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:44,680
feel worse.

723
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:51,120
So they've had some hope and they haven't done what the clarification suggested.

724
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:52,760
So they feel worse.

725
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,800
And that's, you know, that's a shame.

726
00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:00,000
But it wouldn't, it wouldn't stop me attempting to clarify people's difficulties.

727
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,640
Right. But it's no guarantee that it's going to, I mean, I would, I would, I would go in

728
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,960
that direction too, because I think that my job certainly isn't to make decisions for

729
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,080
the person, but I might help them take a look at different options or clarifications or

730
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,800
here, here's some of the forces that you sound like part of you wants to die.

731
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,760
But another part of you doesn't want to die.

732
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,760
Tell me about that part of you that does not.

733
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:23,760
Why are you here?

734
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,120
Why, what is it that keeps you?

735
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:30,400
So maybe bringing some understanding, because that to me that's related to listening.

736
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,840
If I'm listening deeply enough, then it does have a clarifying.

737
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:40,640
But in the end, in the end, even in apparently, because I've seen some incredibly desperate, I've

738
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:46,280
been in pretty bad situations, but I've certainly, and I'm sure you have to, in the end, I just

739
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:54,200
fundamentally believe that even if it's, even if it's on a purely emotional, symbolic

740
00:45:54,200 --> 00:46:01,560
level, that there's some way to move forward, there's some way to rise above any kind of hopeless

741
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:02,560
circumstance.

742
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,000
And maybe that's a, maybe that's a religious position that I have.

743
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,320
I never give up on people.

744
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,280
I never give up, give up on situations.

745
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:10,440
I guess is what I'm saying.

746
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,240
Yeah, that's a kind of faith, isn't it?

747
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:14,240
Mm-hmm.

748
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:15,240
Well, so come back to young.

749
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:20,840
I didn't want to, I didn't want to dodge the burst, the bubble bursting on young.

750
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:28,360
This on wrote a lot about young, going along with Nazi ideas and so on.

751
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,560
And, um, and certainly, there's certainly truth in that.

752
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:32,560
Sure.

753
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,840
Yeah, and to an extent, I've defended that because if you wanted to carry on practicing in Nazi

754
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,200
Germany, you were hardly going to say no, were you?

755
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:42,200
Yeah.

756
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:49,560
But, but the, the more intriguing thing is that in memories, dreams and reflections, which

757
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:55,440
is his autobiography, a book that I adore, so I'm bracing myself for being burst here.

758
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:03,080
Well, in, in that book, of course, he talks about various of, um, various of his concepts,

759
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:10,800
um, like, I don't know, animus and like having the female side and the authoritarian, all

760
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,400
of that.

761
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:21,560
What's intriguing about it is that he deals with the Second World War in less than two pages.

762
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:29,240
And at no point in those two pages, does he suggest that Hitler is anything other than

763
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:34,400
a projection of, of the worst kind of authority figure?

764
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,440
I think it's a masterful book.

765
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,640
And I think the beginning of the book is absolutely brilliant.

766
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,720
But there's a, he seems to abandon common sense during this section on the Second World War,

767
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:46,720
because like I say, it's only two pages.

768
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:51,600
And you know, he was writing in a context with the, I think he published it in my, was it

769
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,120
60 something.

770
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,640
So the Second World War wasn't that far away.

771
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,240
The Holocaust wasn't that far away.

772
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:03,760
Somehow or other in this entire book, he managed not to mention the Holocaust.

773
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,440
And that, I, I, I just find that extraordinary.

774
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,360
I hear, I hear what you're saying I do the, the, the, my bubble isn't burst, however, I'm

775
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:18,320
ready for some pushback because I would say that actually it's very easy, maybe easier

776
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:23,880
psychologically to blame a Hitler or to, I mean, absolutely we have to hold the criminals

777
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,120
accountable.

778
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:33,400
But the more radical or the more responsible question is why do so many people go along

779
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,720
with authoritarian leadership? Because that's how we're going to prevent.

780
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:44,000
Because it's easy to say Hitler, Germany, World War II and not look at Alan Dulles and

781
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,440
George Bush and the history of the United States and colonialism and the Congo and the

782
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:55,880
British Empire and all the ways that we are ourselves wrapped up in this monstrous Holocaust

783
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:02,080
that isn't just over there and done with and that we can package it up and blame the

784
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,960
bad people of history. So I'm not, I'm not convinced that your critique is necessarily against

785
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,320
you. It might actually be in favor. I think it strengthens him because he's asking all

786
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:16,600
of us to look at the banality of evil within our own participation with these movements

787
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:17,800
and these structures.

788
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:25,360
But, but in that book, Jung has no problem accusing other individuals. He has no problem

789
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:33,240
praising other individuals. So it's not like he contextualizes everything. He doesn't

790
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:41,000
talk about Freud as being the ultimate father figure. So I think, I think what you're betraying

791
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,040
is you will love of Jung.

792
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,040
Well, which is fine.

793
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:51,320
Yeah. It's interesting. I've been thinking about this quite a lot because it's not really

794
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,560
Jung the man because I wouldn't defend and that you're bringing this in. I certainly, I

795
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:03,440
think that Jung has the racist sex is homophobic. I mean, the implications of his participation

796
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:09,320
in homophobia in psychology is horrific. And the, I think that there was, there were choices

797
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:14,960
that he made during the Nazi era and maybe what you're saying is absolutely certainly downplay

798
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,920
his colonialism. He certainly doesn't. There's a lot of racism. But I think my love is

799
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:29,000
not for the man, but it's for the something that he's after, which is this idea that we're

800
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:37,040
all part, it's this mystical insight that we're all part of this shared collective soul.

801
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:42,120
And we're all growing together and the way that the way that we participate in nature,

802
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:50,680
we maybe have to bring back some of the traditional indigenous, um, archaic involvement of

803
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:56,720
dreams and imagination and the participation, mystique and be part of nature because then

804
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:01,560
we can discover in ourselves and our own dreams and our symptoms and our illnesses how

805
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:07,360
we're being challenged to grow and learn and change and transform who we are. And to me,

806
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,660
that's a very, it's, it's, it's hard for me to talk about it because it is kind of an

807
00:51:10,660 --> 00:51:18,560
ineffable insight. But I can both critique Jung as the very flawed, you know, white patriarchy

808
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:26,080
from Switzerland as, as well as appreciate a kindred spirit in connecting with this almost

809
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:32,320
mystical truth. At least that's how I, but I'm, but you've, you've opened my eyes to some

810
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:38,440
new critiques of young, which is, which is appreciated. So should we, um, since we've started

811
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:43,240
on the topic of racism and psychology, should we, do you want to talk about that work that

812
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:50,960
you've done? I'm also interested in your thoughts about the connoities between psychiatry and maybe

813
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:58,920
some of the eugenics of the Nazism and, and US and how all that is connected in, um, because

814
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,920
I imagine that your critique of racism and psychology is not just limited to, we need

815
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:10,040
more access for people of color to psychological and psychiatric treatments, which is kind of

816
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:18,560
how it's framed in the mainstream discussion. I think we need less. I would agree, yeah.

817
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:25,720
Given, given that my perspective on psi is it's generally harmful. Exactly. The idea that

818
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:34,520
we should adjust it, um, to enable more people to flood in and be so-called treated. And,

819
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:41,200
of course, the difficulty is that if people from what would be called, um, black and minority

820
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:47,360
ethnic communities or indigenous people, if, if, if people from those communities came

821
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:54,280
into, into psi more as patients, their, their problem would be that they're still confronted

822
00:52:54,280 --> 00:53:01,200
with very white, westernized therapies. That's right. That's right. So the therapies themselves

823
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:08,480
would have to massively change. And I don't think that there's much of a will from people

824
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:13,680
who currently run clinical psychology courses or counseling courses or psych therapy, because

825
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:19,360
I don't think there's much of a will for them to, to, to change. I would agree with that.

826
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,520
That's the, uh, that's the, just, the disproportionate argument that we need to bring greater access

827
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:29,880
and equality. But what about the roots of psychology and, and eugenics and the whole improvement

828
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:35,120
of science and evolutionary superiority and, oh, it's a long story. The, um, putting it

829
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:40,760
at its simplest, uh, the early psychologists who formed, for example, the British Psychological

830
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:50,280
Society in 1904, people like Spirman and Pearson, uh, they would, they were eugenicists. They believed

831
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:56,840
that certain kind of breeding would lead to a degeneration in the species. In Germany,

832
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:07,200
in about 18, 1902, maybe, um, you had the Jaina Prize and the Jaina Prize was a prize, uh,

833
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:14,080
that was eventually won by some of called Shalmeier, which was about proving how certain genetic

834
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:22,120
predispositions would lead to madness, uh, what we had now called intellectual disability,

835
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:28,640
et cetera. In the States, of course, you had compulsory sterilization in various states

836
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:36,880
until 1911 for people who had done poorly on IQ tests. The reason they're done poorly is

837
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:43,040
that no one had taught them to read or write. Exactly. Many of those people were indeed black.

838
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:51,120
You had people like Brigham, who was tasked with selecting out what he described as Negroes,

839
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:58,520
who served in separatist units after the First World War. So, all of these people were

840
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:05,960
psychologists, term, term of the term in moral index. They were all basically eugenicists

841
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:11,560
and they were indeed psychologists. And that's the kind of fundamental root of psychology.

842
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:19,640
Now, you can't sort of look back and say these people were wrong because that was the context.

843
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:27,400
There were very committed socialists, people like Virginia Woolf. And despite the fact

844
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:33,680
they were committed socialists, people like Bernard Shaw, they were also eugenicist. Eugenicist

845
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:40,320
was eugenics was almost a fashion. The very widespread, it was kind of the leading edge

846
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:46,920
of science and just part of what everyone was into. Absolutely. And that forms the fundamental

847
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:55,440
basis for psychology. That's why I am much more suspicious of psychology than I am, for

848
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:01,800
example, astrophysics. Of course. Astrophysics to my knowledge doesn't

849
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:08,640
claim that Saturn's moons are better than the moons on Uranus because they're a particular

850
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:15,800
color. At least I don't think. For me, that's kind of a fundamental flaw in psychology.

851
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,440
The other huge for psychology. The fundamental flaw being that it really reflects

852
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:25,600
the fashion of its time. It's fundamentally culturally bound. Absolutely. But lots of

853
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:33,360
its theories are based on eugenic theories. And those theories haven't gone away.

854
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:37,840
So for example, that was my next question because someone would say, "Oh, this is the past,

855
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,880
Craig, but how is it continuing the present?" That's the main question.

856
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:47,720
I've posted this, I haven't gone away. So a very simple example of this isn't about race.

857
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:53,320
But a simple example is the Wessler Adult Intelligence Scale. When I trained to use the

858
00:56:53,320 --> 00:57:00,160
Wessler Adult Intelligence Scale, I was trained to use it in such a way that you had raw scores

859
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:06,920
and then you converted those into scores based on norms. And so what would happen is you'd

860
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:15,600
have female raw scores and male raw scores. The reason you had to do the conversion was

861
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:23,360
that David Veschler in 1938 discovered that women always scored better than men. So what

862
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:30,960
he did was to split the scores in half. So women were rated against each other. And it's

863
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:37,840
that kind of thing that continues to haunt psychology. It still goes on to this day. A simple example

864
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:44,920
of racism would be selection procedures. So in this country, there are something like,

865
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,840
I don't know, something like 10,000 clinical psychology trainees, as they're called, in

866
00:57:49,840 --> 00:58:00,480
terms, maybe 6,000 of whom, wait for this, 90% are white women in their late 20s.

867
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:09,840
Now that's so much for the post-colonial society. And the state isn't much better. In the state,

868
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:18,320
only 10% of clinical psychologists with doctorates are from what we would call minority backgrounds.

869
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:25,840
But then does the solution just become to have more equitable, more proportionate representation?

870
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:32,080
Because the nap can become tokenism if the ideology and the practice hasn't fundamentally changed.

871
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:37,200
I don't think there is a solution to it. Because I don't think there's a will to change it.

872
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:44,160
The division of clinical psychology in this country has been trying for claiming to try

873
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:51,920
for something like 30 years to change the balance of entrance into the profession. And in 30 years,

874
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:57,360
they haven't managed it. What they have managed to is every couple of years, they say,

875
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:04,880
we must do something about this. So I think that kind of, I think the racism is inherent in many

876
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:13,280
of the theories. I think the racism is inherent in the number of people from Black and minority,

877
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:18,560
I think, backgrounds or indigenous backgrounds that come into the profession. And the racism's

878
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:25,920
also there in the practice. I think the racism actually works both ways. It's quite possible that,

879
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:33,120
in fact, I've got a friend who's a psychotherapist, he's a Black psychotherapist, and he has had white

880
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:39,520
clients walk in and then walk straight out again on the basis they don't want to see a Black therapist.

881
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:45,600
Yeah. Yeah. So it does, in fact, work both ways. But I think what you're kind of left with is

882
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:55,920
people absorb all sorts of myths about other, certain others. So one of the myths about my tribe

883
00:59:55,920 --> 01:00:01,120
is that we're all incredibly well off and we control the world's banks. Right.

884
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:10,000
Now I only control one of the world's banks. It's quite a big one. But that's a kind of a myth

885
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:18,160
that's there. Now it's very difficult not to respond to those myths. So if you grow up with certain myths

886
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:26,800
around indigenous people, around Black people as well, if you grow up with those myths and one of your

887
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:34,960
patients turns out to come from that community, it's, I think it's very difficult not to see your patient

888
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:42,560
according to those myths. It's no different from it if you're aegis and a relatively old person comes

889
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:49,840
in. I'm relatively old now, but I can remember when I was training, people would come in in their 40s.

890
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:57,680
And I think, my God, they're in their 40s. Look at them. And it's very hard to escape that kind of

891
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:03,120
automatic judgment. So in the in this discussion, I mean, let's let's put in a bigger context. I mean,

892
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:09,040
are you a socialist or an anti-capitalist? I mean, I certainly have that orientation that it seems

893
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:18,400
like a privatized medical system and a hyper individualistic exploitation driving inequality. There's

894
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:23,280
no way that we can actually talk about mental health without talking about larger social and political

895
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,400
and economic changes. I mean, is that is that where you would, would, would, where you're thinking would

896
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:33,200
go as well? Well, I'm not sure I talk about mental health, but the, the, the

897
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:38,960
abolish mental health, I think, is maybe we need to get well, I'd abolish the idea of health.

898
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:45,200
Because health is a health is another capitalist notion. Everything is sold in terms of health.

899
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:51,520
You never see a drink, a drink product saying, buy this drink it or make you ill.

900
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:57,760
It's all about another marketing thing. Yeah, the capitalism. So is that, is that the solution

901
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:03,760
should critical psychologists sort of think in, in anti-capitalist and getting beyond capitalist and

902
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:10,800
forming common cause with? I don't think we have either an end of capitalism in sight or a solution

903
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:18,320
to capitalism. And of course, I, I benefit from capitalism. Capitalism has enabled me to buy

904
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:22,880
this microphone for, for 10 bucks. Of course. That's one of the diabolical things. Is it we're all

905
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:29,680
plugged into? It's like an abusive parent. We're getting fed and closed sheltered. But that's where my,

906
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:35,040
that's where my faith comes in maybe. And I'm with you. I mean, it's, it's looking very grim. We're

907
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:41,680
in bad. We haven't even started to talk about the ecological crisis. But do, do psychologists, the

908
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:47,760
side, do people have a responsibility to not just adapt their patients, but to start to think

909
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:52,560
critically about the social political economic context and maybe have a little bit of faith and

910
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:58,640
hope that, you know, if we, we might be able to make some changes, otherwise it's just a very depressing

911
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:07,600
end game. In England, there's a group called the community psychology group. And they aspire to

912
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:14,800
enabling communities to live better lives by doing simple things like, helping to have them change

913
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:21,360
their, where, where the children are able to play. So suddenly they can have bigger green spaces,

914
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:30,400
simple like this things like that. You also have the, the psychotherapy society for social responsibility.

915
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:39,280
And these are psychotherapists who look outwards rather than inwards and look at the circumstances

916
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:45,120
of people's lives and so on. And I don't think those psychotherapists are particularly embarrassed

917
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:50,560
that they earn good money doing it because I think they are doing their best for other people at

918
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:59,040
the same time. So in terms of critical psychology, I think critical psychology would, it would welcome

919
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:07,680
the kind of things these groups are doing, but at the same time, it would find a way of critiquing

920
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:13,920
what they're doing. Not necessarily to stop them doing it, but, but just to say, well, yes, but there's

921
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:20,800
also this factor involved. Craig, we don't have a lot of time left on the interview. Is there anything

922
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,760
you'd like to ask me in this interview or ask our listeners for me or for me to think about?

923
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:35,280
Yeah, I'm going to ask you the same thing that I ask my children after we've not any more because

924
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:41,120
they've grown up. But when we went somewhere special, I would always ask them two questions.

925
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:49,760
And so the first question is, and this is, as a therapist, I used to do this as well at the end of

926
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:57,840
an hour. This is worth doing. So I would say to you, well, what's been the worst bit of our discussion

927
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:06,240
for you? Doesn't have to be terrible just to be the worst bit. So I have to answer now.

928
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:11,280
Yeah, well, the big put on the spot is, I'm not usually asked questions by the guests of being put

929
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:18,080
on the spot. The worst bit, I think I would be hard for me to say the worst bit. I think there's been

930
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:23,440
uncomfortable moments when I've been challenged, but I really, I found that actually really satisfying

931
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:29,520
because I like the depth and the thinking. The worst bit, I think, to be honest, the worst bit is

932
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:35,680
knowing that you don't have more time and that you were maybe getting uncomfortable where you're

933
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:43,040
sitting and that was probably the worst bit. That's very kind of you. Okay, what's been the best bit?

934
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:51,520
Oh, the best bit is having to think a little bit more deeply about young and then also just the way

935
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:56,080
in which you're critical, because usually I'm the most critical guy in the room when it comes to

936
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:07,920
the side and to being out critical. What's great was great. Okay. Okay. Would you like me to plug

937
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:12,960
a book or two? Yeah, please do, Craig, where we need to wrap up and let people know how they can

938
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:17,760
contact you, tell them about your books and if they want to find out more about your work.

939
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:30,480
Okay, they can join the Herd community, H-E-A-R-D community, Facebook group. That's my band. Great.

940
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:39,840
Okay. Great. And they can watch your live stream. If they want to see more critical stuff in general,

941
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:47,760
they should go on the egalitarian publishing website and they can subscribe or get free copies

942
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:55,760
of the Journal of Critical Psychology, Counseling and Psychotherapy. If they want to help my children

943
01:06:55,760 --> 01:07:05,200
eat more, they can buy copies of racism in psychology from Routledge. And if they want to change their lives,

944
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:14,560
I have two books. One is called 52 Ways to Change Your Life. And the other one, which came out within

945
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:21,920
three weeks of the first lockdown, is called 52 Ways to Survive a Pandemic. Fantastic. Well,

946
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:26,880
Craig Noons, thank you so much for joining us today on Madness Radio. It's been wonderful.

947
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:34,720
Thanks for asking me. Today, my guest is Craig Noons. Craig is an author, musician, historian and

948
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:41,200
critical psychologist. He is the author of more than 200 academic articles and two dozen books,

949
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:46,480
including racism and psychology. And he was a licensed clinical psychologist in UK.

950
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:53,760
A Craig is a singer and guitarist in two bands and has run several competitive marathons

951
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:55,440
among other accomplishments.

952
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:13,040
What does it mean to be called crazy in a crazy world? Listen to Madness Radio, voices and visions

953
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:21,520
from outside mental health.

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01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:23,520
[Music]